00:05
Lara Schmoisman
This is Coffee Number Five. I’m your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Coffee Number Five. My coffee is ready as usual. I’m ready to have an amazing chat. So as you guys know, I’m daughter and sister of lawyers. And everyone who always or work with me or had an audit with me, they know that I always go into legalities. It’s embedded to me. I mean, I grew up in a household that my vocabulary was very well developed at young age. My parents talk always in legal jargo and I, all my friends made fun of me of that about that, but it just really helped me later on in life. However, I do see the importance of brands who understand the legal consequences of what they’re doing. So today I brought another friend and welcome. Masha, thank you so much for being here. 

01:10
Lara Schmoisman
And you have an incredible trajectory today. You specialize in Mokra and regulations for brands, but also you come from the background of sustainability. So what you don’t, why you don’t tell us a little bit about you and your background and how did you get to where you are today? 

01:29
Marcha Chaudry
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Laura. And I have my coffee too. 

01:33
Lara Schmoisman
Awesome. 

01:36
Marcha Chaudry
Yes, I do come from a background of advocacy, consumer advocacy specifically, and advocating for safer, sustainable products in the beauty industry. I started my career, or when I started my career in the beauty industry, I was at the National Women’s Health Network where I developed their cosmetic policy program and did a lot of lobbying at the regulatory, at the congressional level and agency level, advocating for different policies to enhance regulations around regulatory oversight in the government. And clean. 

02:21
Lara Schmoisman
I say, yes, I hear that. 

02:25
Marcha Chaudry
Yes, an ingredient safety. And then I also put a special emphasis on how these issues impact inclusive communities because women are the majority users of many cosmetics. And also certain communities face certain harms or more harms because of their. 

02:47
Lara Schmoisman
Added. 

02:48
Marcha Chaudry
Usage for different cosmetic products and skincare products and hair care products. And so that’s a long way to say that I did a lot of background work in advocacy and sort of bringing the attention to some of these issues that were lacking in terms of regulation. And so when Mocha was passed, as a result of a lot of consumer advocates, including myself, including other nonprofit organizations, NGOs, and even industry lobbyists and advocates, I decided to assist brands with compliance, given my deep understanding of the policy. 

03:29
Lara Schmoisman
And regulation that’s so important. But there were some things that you were saying back then that really caught my attention and is part of the continued conversation. Let’s talk first about clean beauty. It’s what it means to be clean beauty and why clean beauty is always evolving and there are different standards of clean beauty. You have cradle Sephora. Can you explain our audience what clean beauty means and why there are different standards? 

04:01
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, so clean beauty means a lot of different things given that there isn’t a regulatory definition for clean. And so retailers have become innovative and developed their own standards for clean. And like you mentioned, Credo has a clean beauty standard, Sephora has a clean beauty standard, Target does, and other retailers. And they’re all different and some of them are very similar. But essentially many of these standards are, you know, they’re excluding harmful or known to being harmful substances and chemicals and products. And they’re also. Well, yes, they’re free from, they’re restricted or banned. So they set their own standards in terms of what clean is. But essentially, I guess the value or the underlining theme is that we want products and consumers want products that are not harmful. 

05:07
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. But why is it keep evolving? And do you think that some standards are crossing the line a little too much of their cleanest cleaning roles? 

05:20
Marcha Chaudry
I would say no, I don’t think so. As a advocate, you know that background, as a consumer advocate, they are evolving because consumer needs are evolving. Also other countries regulations are evolving. As you know, the EU and UK are far more advanced in terms of the amount of banned and restricted ingredients in those countries versus us. Yes, it’s a vast difference. 

05:54
Lara Schmoisman
Do you think we have now democra law that we’re going to get into that soon, but also that we’re going to evolve the point that we’re going to unify what we call it clean ingredients. I have a list that is going to be more unique and not depending on stores. 

06:14
Marcha Chaudry
That’s a stretch. I mean that would be, that would be great. I, I think it will take a lot of working together from industry side, consumer side and industry advocates, you know, they have their own scientists and so does the consumer advocate and they often have different opinions in terms of what and expertise and knowledge around which ingredients are clean and not clean. And so I think there’s, it’s going to take a lot of collaboration and then, you know, working with Congress as well to get legislation around this issue. 

06:57
Lara Schmoisman
Do you think it’s important? 

06:59
Marcha Chaudry
Of course, yeah, I do think it’s important. I, I as a consumer myself and you know, disregard my background. I like to shop for products that have proven, you know, whether it’s their claims, whether it’s their ingredients to be clean or to be Free from certain harmful chemicals and our efficacy as well. 

07:24
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that you just touch on was different ethnicities or different backgrounds. Do you feel like the beauty industry, I put some brands and putting themselves in boxes that they’re just, you think it’s a marketing strategy or they’re really products that works better for an ADC or another one. 

07:48
Marcha Chaudry
That’s a layered question given, you know, I’ll use the example of hair products. Different ethnicities have different hair textures. You know, my wash day might look completely different from another person’s wash day who is not a black woman who has, you know, four textured hair, which requires a lot of moisture, a lot of conditioning and a lot different wash routines. So I think in terms of, it depends on the product category. But for hair products, for example, I do think it could be advantageous for brands to put themselves in the specific box and market to specific communities given that the needs and the textures and those communities have different, you know, needs. 

08:47
Marcha Chaudry
But I, I’ve seen with some marketing, for example, I don’t want to name any brands, but I have seen some brands that they, I’ve heard that if it works for this community, for example, black women who have our hair requires a lot of moisture in order for it not to get damaged and break and get brittle and so if the product can work for this community, then it’s kind of covering other communities who have different hair textures as well. 

09:20
Lara Schmoisman
Well, I think that this is more a problem solution, like how I see it more for marketing. And yes, there are some communities of some ethnicities that have like for example, I’m Jewish as gnasi and we have, we tend to have more skin cancer. So we need to be more mindful of our skin, which is true, it’s part of our heritage. But also there are many other heritage that they have the same thing. But I’ve been seeing from the marketing side lately that there are a lot of brands that they are auto denominating themselves part of a culture and trying to approach their equals. 

09:55
Marcha Chaudry
I think it depends on the type of product because like I use the example of hair, we do have different hair textures and curl patterns. And so if you want to market a product to a specific community that has specific curl patterns and issues with those curl patterns and I don’t see anything wrong with it. But also you’re the expert in marketing, so I would defer to you. 

10:19
Lara Schmoisman
Well, I have my own opinions about that. But let’s go back to Mokra because I’M super interested in talking about what Mokra means for brands. 

10:29
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, Mokra is a regulation that was passed recently which requires a myriad of different regulations that brands need to abide to. So there’s the product listing, and it depends on the size of the brand. If you’re a big brand then grossing over a million over the course of three years, then your products need to be listed with the fda. For smaller brands, there are exceptions. It depends on which kind of products you have. The exceptions include products that go around the membrane of the eye, products that are injected, and products that alter the appearance of the skin for more than 24 hours. So there’s this new listing requirement that requires brands to list their products with the FDA and update that yearly. 

11:25
Lara Schmoisman
And then for facilities, that’s responsibility of the brand itself or it’s responsibility of the manufacturing facility to register them. 

11:36
Marcha Chaudry
It’s the responsible person. And at times that can be the brand and then other times it’s the manufacturer and the responsible person is the person that’s listed on the label. I see there’s also requirements around adverse event reporting, which is also new. And it’s this measure that provides the FDA with information about the safety of products. So if a consumer has an issue with a product and they have a serious adverse event, then they need to be able to report that to the brand or give that brand that information. And the brand has. Or the responsible person, I should say, has this new responsibility to assess it, keep it on record for three years for small businesses and six years for big businesses and report it to the FDA if it’s serious. 

12:32
Lara Schmoisman
Oh, that’s really important. I didn’t know that one. Is that new? 

12:36
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, that’s new. This is one of the new requirements under Mokra. It’s adverse event reporting. 

12:42
Lara Schmoisman
Okay. So there’s a whole new section in the Beauty, Cosmetics wellness space that is Sexual wellness. How Sexual wellness get into Mokra? Because I. What? And I’m not an expert on this, but a lot of sexual wellness products that you put internally, I believe that they are considered devices. 

13:10
Marcha Chaudry
Okay. That’s a more technical classification. It depends on the ingredients, the claims on the product and the usage. Device has its own requirements under the fda and cosmetics have its own under mochra. I know I have clients who have intimate care products, for example, which can go inside of the body and they’re considered cosmetics. So it really would depend on what’s. 

13:42
Lara Schmoisman
The difference there between being considered a device or a cosmetic device that goes. 

13:49
Marcha Chaudry
Into a whole nother area of Mainly instruments, cosmetics is anything that you put on your skin to beautify your appearance. So makeup, skincare, hair care are cosmetics. You’re using these products to whether it’s like make your hair look prettier or beautify your face in terms of makeup or skin. So these are just ways products that you’re using to enhance your physical appearance. 

14:20
Lara Schmoisman
But so for example in sexual wellness that you have products that it will enhance the feeling? 

14:30
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, feeling is not a cosmetic. 

14:32
Lara Schmoisman
It’s not? 

14:33
Marcha Chaudry
No. Well, not really. But there could be some exceptions. Like I said, it would depend on the claims on the, could depend on the ingredients. And when I say claims it’s like what is the product purporting to do? You know, is it just making you feel a certain way or is it improving the appearance of something? 

14:52
Lara Schmoisman
I see, I see that. That’s very interesting. And it could be for brands who, they can go either way, but depends of I guess who what the company and the purpose is for. 

15:06
Marcha Chaudry
Yes, yes. 

15:08
Lara Schmoisman
So how do you explain sustainability? Because it’s really hard for brands or young brands to have like low moqs. And as you know, in brands, in cosmetics sometimes you need to be making adjustments and modification or in clean beauty that also the products or the ingredients are, you need to change. So you need to change the composition. So how can you help brands to be sustainable and not necessarily having to incorporate into more expenses? 

15:46
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, that’s a tricky, it’s a tricky thing especially because now sustainability is so it’s a hot topic. I know 5 years ago when I was talking about sustainability, even in terms of its intersection with climate, people were, and I say people, it was, you know, some of the advocacy that I was doing at the time it was like, sure, cosmetics, climate change, sure. But now it’s becoming this hot topic and this thing that you know, we’re starting to see that consumers are demanding for in terms of where consumers in terms of, you know, how they think about the environment, like where these, the packaging is ending up and how the packaging is made and they’re wanting more transparency around where the ingredients are coming for from so it’s sourcing and then whether it’s clean. 

16:39
Marcha Chaudry
So I think sustainability plays into a lot of different aspects from the ingredients to the packaging, even the claims. 

16:48
Lara Schmoisman
Because even transportation, storage. 

16:52
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, it’s a long chain of different elements and brands wanting to. Well, I think just brands thinking about sustainability from the start is a plus. 

17:07
Lara Schmoisman
And it’s, it is a plus that also could be very costly for a brand trying to, at the beginning when you have lower quantities to try to be completely sustainable. 

17:21
Marcha Chaudry
Absolutely. It’s, it is costly, it’s an investment and, but with the regulations changing and the consumer needs changing, I think it’s a smart investment and it’s, and it can save costs on the back end. You know, if you’re, if this brand blows up and becomes super successful, at least it’s, you know, it’s starting out with a sustainability plan. 

17:48
Lara Schmoisman
Like for example, if you, Mitch, advised a very young brand that has limited resources, how do you tell them to protect themselves and to start right as a brand? From the legal side. 

18:09
Marcha Chaudry
From the legal side? Well, I would start with compliance. Of course, it depends on where the brand is. So it has this brand. Is this brand already developed? 

18:21
Lara Schmoisman
This is an apothecal brand. Starting from scratch? 

18:26
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, starting from scratch. Yeah, starting from scratch. Then I think you have so many options and I, it’s, I believe it’s easier to at least start. I don’t know that you can get sustainability perfected, but if you start to. And sustainability and clean kind of go hand in hand to me in some ways because the free from includes chemicals that can harm the environment and possibly the body. So starting with looking at your ingredients, where they’re sourced and where they’re sourced, how the practices around the employees there are handled, it’s really, I guess, a journey of a lot of transparency, which has often not been the case in the beauty industry. Even with fragrances, for example, that’s a protected trade secret. 

19:27
Marcha Chaudry
But brands that are willing to, or our companies and teams that are willing to start from the very beginning with transparency in terms of how they get their ingredients, where they get them, the ingredients that they disclose and the quality of the ingredients is important, all of that is costly as well. Then I would go into compliance, you know, making sure the claims are backed, making sure that the marketing copy, you know, is abiding by what you’re allowed to say based on what your, the ingredients are based on the testing or non testing you’ve done. So. 

20:09
Lara Schmoisman
That’S a, that’s a really good one. And I always say to my clients in packaging, as long if you don’t have clinicals, if you don’t have the data to back up in packaging, at least less is more because it can be very costly to have to remove it or to change it. If it’s in the website, it’s very easy to change. But whatever you print is out there. 

20:34
Marcha Chaudry
Exactly. That’s great advice. 

20:37
Lara Schmoisman
No, and it’s really important. The claims even, I mean, we’re getting flagged all the time with Amazon, with Meta, with claimants, you need to be super careful. It’s something that I got at the agency. Of course we have copywriters, but also we have a proofreader and I drive them crazy. Are you sure that this is not claiming because you are misleading your customers and that’s a thing that you can never do is I prefer always to under promise and over deliver. But to be honest of who you are as a brand and attract someone with facts, not with pretty claims. And I feel like there are a lot of brands that they do that. 

21:21
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, that’s great advice, Laura, because a lot of brands do that. I’ve come across brands that, you know, I’m assisting with compliance and we have to redo all of the labeling because the, you know, the claim that there wasn’t any substantiation and maybe they just looked at a competitor and thought, oh, we can claim what they claim because our products are similar. But you can’t do that. You know, that company may have gone through testing and consumer surveys and other forms of validating their claims. 

21:53
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. And also like for example, when a brand food doctor recommended or you really have to have a doctor and have that in file somewhere to be able to show it. 

22:04
Marcha Chaudry
Yes. 

22:05
Lara Schmoisman
It’s not that you can say, oh no, I just put it. Yeah, it’s the same that with reviews. I had a case of a client recently that I took over from another agency, let’s put it this way. And what I found out is that there were a lot of reviews and there were fake reviews. 

22:27
Marcha Chaudry
Oh, man. Yeah. That’s going into issues with the ftc. You don’t want to do that at all. 

22:33
Lara Schmoisman
Of course. It’s not good. It’s not good at all. Because you are really creating a problem for your brand because you want people to. And in this case, the reviews weren’t even talking about hard products, they were talking about random products. So if you start reading, I was like, what was this marketing thinking? And she reached out to him and he said, well, fake reviews are better than no reviews. 

23:05
Marcha Chaudry
Oh my goodness. 

23:06
Lara Schmoisman
I mean, if as you are a good marketer, there is great ways to get reviews out there. 

23:13
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah. And I think you want honest reviews that also can help you enhance your brand. 

23:22
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. It’s so important to do social listening. It’s something that people don’t put it on the side. And it’s really important to listen to Those reviews and what people are complaining is one of my tricks. What I really like to work with my clients early on, even when they are in development and work next to them with formulation and see how we going to use this with their brand story. For me, brand story is super important and founder story. But one of the things that I always recommend is go to your competition and look at the reviews and see what people are complaining so you don’t make those mistakes if you think that the texture is not right from that product. Oh, so what can we do to make that texture better? 

24:14
Marcha Chaudry
Right, yeah. That’s a good way to learn from what others are doing and enhance your own product. 

24:21
Lara Schmoisman
Because there is so much going there out there. There are so many brands. I do believe that there’s space more for good products out there. There always are, is. But at the same time, you need to make sure that you don’t put it one more product out there like, oh, yes, this is my benchmark, let’s do this. But it’s the same as them. But let’s just change the branding. That’s not having a good product out there. You have to have a problem, you have to have a solution, create a pro a solution. But also you need to look at the competitive space and who you’re going to because there is so many people, they are buying products, so you definitely going to do that. Someone stopped buying another product to buy yours, so why. 

25:12
Marcha Chaudry
Right, exactly. The why I will say as I’m loyal to the products that I use, I’ve used certain products for the past 10 years because they’re that good and that goes into sustainability Again, because this product does what it says it’s going to do and it did the testing and it actually works. So I don’t even have to go and shop around and buy all these different products because I like what I use and it works for me. 

25:40
Lara Schmoisman
That’s great. But at the same time, your skin evolves and matures. 

25:43
Marcha Chaudry
It does. I mean, I’m sure 10 years I may be using, but for the last 10 years I have been using some of the same products. 

25:50
Lara Schmoisman
That’s fantastic. But sometimes it’s good also to see to start understanding your own skin. Like for example, there were some products that I really like, but as I was becoming a more mature woman, I realized that they stopped working. Yeah, I started to go and go outside and say, okay, let’s find what else works for me. And believe me, it was a journey. Yeah, I can imagine it was a very interesting journey. Because your body changes and your skin changes with it. 

26:22
Marcha Chaudry
Absolutely. 

26:23
Lara Schmoisman
So before we go, I want to ask you one more question. So if you have, let’s say, a brand in the market that they’re trying to scale right now, I can tell you what things people are not paying enough attention from the marketing side. We talk about a little bit about how the story, or for me, accessibility laws or cookie laws and other laws. But what are people, what are things that people need to watch for as they scale a brand. 

26:58
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah, as you scale, of course. I’m going to say this as someone who’s in compliance regulations at the state level. There’s a lot going on. Different states coming, planning to impose various restrictions in the future. I’m doing a. I’m going to be on a panel next year discussing this, like what’s going on at the state level, but watch out for the regulations. I would also say look at what other countries that are more progressive than the U.S. Depending on, you know, what kind of brand this is, if they’re just based here and selling here. But look at the progressive countries in terms of what they’re doing or progressive policies that are being implemented around cosmetics in other countries that have big beauty markets and see what they’re doing. That’s a, that’s a. I think that’s a cheat code. 

28:00
Marcha Chaudry
I know a lot of brands that sort of, in terms of when they’re developing their product, they’re already following other countries that have progressed. 

28:11
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. That’s one of the recommendations that I always give to my brands. That when you create your product, you create it for the future, that to be able to expand wherever you want because you never know where your opportunities will come from. 

28:27
Marcha Chaudry
Yeah. And I would say, yeah, as long as you’re staying ahead in terms of compliance, I think is important. Staying ahead in terms of sustainability, which is becoming more and more of a. An issue and theme in the cosmetic industry and paying attention to what consumers are looking for. I look at consumer surveys, I do research when I do presentations, I look at the statistics on how many consumers prefer this and prefer that. And so look at those studies that are out there to see how you can enhance your product as well. 

29:06
Lara Schmoisman
That is great advice. Well, thank you so much, Masha, for being here. It was great seeing you. 

29:12
Marcha Chaudry
Great seeing you too. And thank you for having me. And enjoy the rest of your Friday. Yeah. 

29:17
Lara Schmoisman
And to you guys. I will see you next week with more coffee. Number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don’t forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao. Ciao.