00:02
Lara Schmoisman
Hi, guys. Welcome back to coffee number five. My coffee is ready as always, and I’m ready for another amazing conversation. And it seems like a theme of my month as I was in Nashville at stimulate this month and it’s all about sexual wellness and sexual and pleasure. Why not let’s say it and let’s dare in this conversation to talk about a lot of things that we normally think about, but we don’t express it. So I’m so happy that Catherine Magee decided to join us today. I met her a few months ago at another conference and I was inspired by her and the things she was daring to say and daring to share with people. So welcome, Katherine.
00:52
Catherine
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here and have this coffee conversation.
00:56
Lara Schmoisman
Thank you for being here. I want to learn more about playground and how you decided to dare of creating a wellness brand and not any kind of wellness, sexual wellness brand.
01:12
Catherine
Yeah. So I actually originally started my career in the cosmetics and skincare industry at companies like L’Oreal and Bare minerals. I was the vp of marketing at Rodan and fields and loved cosmetic and skincare, mostly because women were passionate about it and women talked about it. You could walk into a bathroom and just have a normal open conversation about it. And then when I was looking to start my own business, I wanted to create that same experience. Right. I say that what I do is create products that make women feel confident and beautiful. And when I was looking in, particularly the sexual health aisle, I was struck by the fact that women are scared and shameful, feel ashamed to walk down this aisle and not empowered to walk down this aisle.
02:13
Catherine
And then the more that I dug in, the more that I learned lubricants are considered a medical device. The legacy brands have been around forever. There just hadn’t been a lot of change. And nobody who was really willing to update formulas, create better ingredients, create products that women could actually like the feel of as much as their skincare products, but then also take big steps to change how people think about the product. And it was really exciting challenge that I wanted to jump in and do it. Of course, I now have a number of years of all the pushback that we’ve received. We’ve actually, I think, made huge strides and changes, but definitely, oh my God.
03:00
Lara Schmoisman
The last few years, it was a game changer. I was telling you off before the podcast that my first client in the agency was erectile dysfunction. And this was five, a little more than five years ago, something like that. And it was very challenging not only to learn the space, but also.
03:21
Catherine
To.
03:22
Lara Schmoisman
Say things without saying it many times because you get flagged, right.
03:27
Catherine
Well, certainly we can go into the whole advertising and platform side of it.
03:35
Lara Schmoisman
Before we get to that, I want to ask you, because you just mentioned something, that lubricants are considered medical devices. Can you explain a little more that?
03:47
Catherine
Certainly. And I love explaining it, too, because you and I have talked about that. People’s inability to talk about this means that we’re really not, don’t have a lot of knowledge around why we should be using these lubricants, how it impacts our body, the ingredients that go inside of our body, all things that we care so much about, other areas of our health and wellness, and not this area. But lubricants are considered a grade two medical device. That is because these are formulas and ingredients that go inside of our body and get absorbed by our vagina. The vagina is the most absorbent area of the body, more than the mouth. Your mouth can actually protect you from infection and irritation more than the vagina can. Utis, BB. These things are number one cause is from sexual intercourse.
04:45
Catherine
And so it’s a very delicate area of the body. And great lubricants can help you prevent these issues. And not great lubricants or lubricants that aren’t FDA approved can have ingredients that can cause irritation. So this is one of the products that sits on the consumer shelf and most consumers don’t realize is actually highly regulated by the FDA.
05:11
Lara Schmoisman
And that’s incredible. And it’s really important people listening to this and educating people about this, because I was also talking to someone a couple of weeks ago that they were saying, like, for example, the lips in your vagina are as sensitive as under your eyes. And we put creams under your eyes all the time, and we put anti aging, but then we don’t take care of all our parts.
05:38
Catherine
Right. I think that it’s conversations like this and also women stepping up to take care of their health and wellness, that is, we’re starting to see a groundswell of interest, and I think it’s going to grow into a huge change. But absolutely, we care about the skin on our face. We think of all moisturizers and lubricants as skincare for the vulva and vagina. And there’s proof that these products truly are skincare down there for women. Historically, though, lubricants were designed for male pleasure. And playground is here to kind of talk about, first of all, I love this. Not about me. It’s about we, it’s about me and we. And that these products impact women’s sexual health more than men’s sexual health. And that’s why women should really be educated and informed and proactive in understanding and using these products.
06:47
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, and that’s what I was about to say, that we start with understanding. Understanding our body. Pleasure also is about for a woman to understand what feels good and what doesn’t.
07:02
Catherine
Right. You know, we playground. We sit at the intersection of pleasure and health. If you don’t have great vaginal health, then you really can’t have great pleasure. That’s why we feel strongly in connecting the dots there.
07:19
Lara Schmoisman
So tell me a little bit about the challenges, because the first challenge I understand, I’m sure that it was to create the formula, that it worked well, but it comes from the background, marketing background. So probably you had that nail. But then you start finding out other challenges, that there were platforms, selling all that. What was your journey?
07:41
Catherine
So in this particular space, part of it is because of the barrier of the FDA and the ability, meaning that if you want to sell product, you need to get their approval. And it’s a big hurdle and a big lift. So most people won’t do it. I think we walked into it a little naively as skincare developers, because we know what all these great ingredients are for, skin or hydration and moisture. We developed our formulas with our own chemists from scratch, which is very unique, and then went and through the process of getting that FDA approval. So there are most, the secret in this category is that most lubricants are just created by the same manufacturer up there, and there is no difference. So went through that hurdle. And then I think the two big hurdles are consumers are using this product.
08:43
Catherine
Consumers want this product. Demand for this product is growing. Retailers are still nervous about selling the product, mostly because they’re worried what consumers think, which is ironic because consumers actually want it. But there’s always fear in the new and fear in, quote, adult. And even though we consider this a health product. And so we are constantly working with retailers to help them clear the hurdle of how do you sell this directly to consumers?
09:22
Lara Schmoisman
I think at the end of the day, it’s all about education. And like I always say is we need to educate our consumer, but also we need to educate the retailers.
09:32
Catherine
Correct. So there definitely education on both sides. And again, we look through it through the lens of health and wellness, because everybody is more comfortable talking about it that way. And then we kind of reverse into pleasure. But a lot of great people, including our chief sexologist doctor Emily Morris talks about it. Pleasure first. So I think there’s a way to bring up both sides of the discussion and then connect them.
10:01
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. So let me ask you a question, because I have to ask this. You have a big name behind as partner too. And how do you feel, we’re gonna say the name Christina Aguilera and how did she, you feel like it helped you or having a big name behind the brand?
10:22
Catherine
Certainly initially, the goal was just to create a brand and a product that women could really feel comfortable with and love and then have ingredients in a formula that they, that was efficacious and as beautiful as skincare. Less concern around the, you know, having it attached to a big name coming from beauty. It had been around for a very long time. That being said, we, you know, we, I was connected to someone who knew Christina, and Christina herself was really interested in the category and the mission and the product. She’s one of, you know, if you want to talk about a role model for female empowerment, common around sexuality, she is that role model. She lives that.
11:18
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, she owns it.
11:19
Catherine
She is owns it. And she’s. And, you know, we talk about the last couple years of playground, some of the uphill battles we faced. I mean, she was an OG in facing this within the entertainment world. And so it really wasn’t, really was these conversations that led to a place where she was going to join me as a co founder and that were going to work together to elevate this conversation and destigmatize the category and just, you know, and she shines a very bright light on the conversation and obviously playground.
12:00
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, well, no, it’s great to have someone who empowers a brand, but not only that initiates and continues a conversation because this is also something were talking before. It’s like, it’s something in this culture at least that is very hush. And I live in LA, you live in New York, that it’s, I think people are more open about their sexuality, but still, it’s not a lot of conversation about it.
12:28
Catherine
You mean, it’s so interesting, right? Like we’ve reached a place closer to a place where people are very proud of their identity and their sexuality, and yet we still can’t talk about our sexual relationships and our sexual health.
12:44
Lara Schmoisman
Yes, it’s very interesting that we are so now demanding of different genders and that, and to accept people as they are, but we cannot own our own sexuality and talk about it. People even talk more about sickness. Everyone is okay to talk about sickness, but nobody’s okay to talk about sexuality.
13:11
Catherine
Right. And especially women, I find especially women, as we are postpartum or menopause, women in cancer, when their hormones are changing and they are experiencing some real sexual health changes and they’re older, they’re just always putting other people in front of themselves. And so there’s lots of factors why that we don’t talk about it. And one of the big things that I kind of talk to is that women assume these are problems. They think that they’re broken. That’s kind of the biggest message. And we’re like, you’re not broken. Every single woman in this world gets a period. Every single woman, through menopause. It is actually one of the most relatable and most common challenges that we all have.
14:04
Lara Schmoisman
So we should, and it’s normal. We need to normalize these conversations.
14:09
Catherine
Completely normalized. But we’ve associated it like a problem. And I give this example, you know, when mascara companies talk to women, they don’t say, wow, your eyelashes are dry and brittle and broken. They say, wear mascara. It’ll make you look beautiful and feel confident. Right. This product is nothing different than that. This product will help you know, amp up your hydration and moisture just like it does to your skin. If we, you know, we put moisture on our skin to make us look beautiful, and we can do the same down there and it’s. And it’s to benefit us.
14:44
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love the parallel that you put there, that it’s very true because everything comes in how it makes you feel.
14:56
Catherine
Right.
14:56
Lara Schmoisman
And when you have a partner, also, you have better relationships.
15:02
Catherine
We’ve had hundreds, if not thousands of years that have told people how what their bedroom experiences are, should be and making them feel bad if, you know, if things weren’t, you know, perfect, like in a story room. But, like, you know, I think we do compare to a skincare mascara, too. I mean, people don’t feel great about their skin sometimes, but they also don’t feel shame about it. Right. They’re just like, how do I solve the problem? How can I look? How can I look and feel better about that?
15:36
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, but see, also, that’s what were talking about, retail. You go to a store and you ask your salesperson, what, can I make my eyes look better right now? I don’t think. I don’t think people a feel comfortable asking those questions. And second, are friendly retail experts prepared to answer those questions, too?
16:01
Catherine
That’s a great question. I think that is something that I’d love to see change. Right. So podcasts are a great place to do that. I call it the one to many. Right. So maybe we’re not ready to have bring 100 women in the room and I’ll have a conversation, but we can have people like Christina, people like us who are having these conversations in these digital platforms that other people can listen into. I think that’s great. We also, I’d love to see new retail experiences for retailers, partner with a playground or whoever to make people more comfortable about this. You know, there’s the whole emerging telehealth world for women, and I think that’s a great opportunity because those platforms can be able to broach those conversations directly with women, too.
17:02
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. I think that we’re putting a little grain there, just opening the conversation so people say, okay, are there people talking about this? So I can talk, too?
17:13
Catherine
I’m telling you, sex, pleasure, everybody wants to listen to that. They secretly want to talk about it.
17:20
Lara Schmoisman
Yes. At least if they don’t talk, they want to listen into it. I mean, how many romance books are out there? People are, they are all fantasized that exist. But also, are you doing something to change your life into that fairy tale? And it’s interesting, there’s some, I’ve been talking to a lot of women that they go all about these book clubs and they discuss romance and they discuss their relationships, but I never hear say, let’s discuss a sex part.
17:56
Catherine
Yep. I mean, you’re right. You’re right.
17:59
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. So, well, this is a lot for us to do and just to change and help people to understand. So what other barriers? I mean, let’s talk a little bit about advertising here because this is a very tough category for advertising. How did you get around it? How do you make people know about your product?
18:23
Catherine
You know, I think the only way to understand all the barriers of advertising is to be a brand like us that tries all of them. So we’ve learned about the different platforms and their different roles, but these platforms are responding to what they think societal norms are. So. And as you pointed out in the US, there is still some hesitation and crudeness when it comes to this category. You know, we have two thoughts around this thought. Number one is that really, like we said, pleasure is very connected to sexual health. And so when we can’t talk about sexual health and pleasure, then we are not able to help couples, women, people solve them.
19:20
Catherine
So we actually think the lack of ability to connect with consumers on everyday advertising channels in a way that is appropriate and through the lens of health is a real problem. It’s a real problem and it really hurts people on Amazon. You cannot advertise, you cannot, you get a taken down and you’re highly censored if you use the word vaginal.
19:47
Lara Schmoisman
Oh, yeah.
19:49
Catherine
So not even vagina, not even sex. Not even in lubricant. All those are protected words. But vaginal is a word that when people search it on Amazon, they’re looking for health solutions. Yeah, there are lots of censored keywords that are actually hurting sexual health.
20:13
Lara Schmoisman
Yes. And on top of that, now the use of all these platforms that they’re using AI to flag the contents.
20:21
Catherine
So you’re constantly being flagged and there’s not really what a lot of big platforms have done is they haven’t really investigated it. And so anything gets put into that big box.
20:35
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely.
20:36
Catherine
Vaginal moisturizers. Right. Vaginal washes get put into that spot. By no means that has anything to do with sex. The word vagina gets put into that box. And really what we want to talk to advertisers about is that’s not a bad word. And when you tell ten year old little girls that’s a bad word and should be censored, that’s actually the, that’s not a very good message. So we’ve grown to be very passionate about that. And then really though, we don’t actually do a ton of advertising ourselves. We don’t say things like impressions or reach. We say conversations.
21:19
Lara Schmoisman
I love that.
21:20
Catherine
Really, really important for us. And then how can we have those conversations with people, influencers, editors and advocates and champions, whomever they may be, is kind of what we have done. And that’s how you get around to all of the advertising hiccups. I would say that’s how our approach has been done, too. And it’s also most more authentic. And we really love that.
21:54
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, well, this is. So what’s next for playground? How we’re going to, you’re going to keep, and I’m saying we, because I feel like I’m so passionate about this industry and that how we’re going to keep breaking barriers and what’s next for the brand. And I know that you have several skills already and that you are probably creating more brand awareness and more because this is a job of a founder, always growing and growing. But what’s next for you? How are you going to keep advocating?
22:29
Catherine
One of the things that we feel passionate about is to create really great products. We have a line of everyday, our everyday, clean, healthy water based lubricant that’s long lasting and comes in different quote, essences. Smell is very important to the bedroom. It is one of the top senses that you use. And were able to create a these beautiful, clean aromas to help enhance that. We’re very excited because we’re launching a new product that is focused on decreasing or preventing vaginal health issues, including UTIs, BV, post sex irritation. So that’s very exciting because so many of these issues are caused during intercourse and we have a way to help prevent that. So that’s really what’s coming up next.
23:23
Catherine
And another big focus that are another big focus of ours that we will continue is just sharing our product and our message and our brand of empowerment with retailers. So we’re working with Target, Nordstrom’s, Urban Outfitters. Anthropology. When consumers and other retailers see brands like us in their aisles, it just, to your point, to your word, normalizes it. So we want to continue to normalize it. We want to continue to show people that these are products that are beautiful and premium and healthy and change the way they’re viewed. Well, one of the most recent launches that we had, we’re very excited, is a flagship product called Pillow Talk. Pillow Talk goes right to what were saying. We named it, actually this christina named it synonymous with conversations around healthy sex and pleasure, pillow talk with your partner, pillow talk with your friends.
24:36
Catherine
And we’re so passionate about that mission. That pillow talk also launched playground social cause, which is to create conversations and destigmatize the bad ones. So a portion of proceeds, 1% of sales for every pillow talk sold will go to women’s sexual health nonprofits, starting with the center for Intimacy justice. This is a great organization. They fight every day to change advertising standards and shine a light on healthy conversations around sexuality and sexual health products for everyone.
25:20
Lara Schmoisman
That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Let me ask you a question, because I think a lot of our audience will be surprised about this answer. Who is your target audience? What are the ages of the people who buy this product?
25:34
Catherine
Okay, so I’m going to give you a geeky marketing answer here, because at the end of the day, I’m a longtime marketer. I think of what is our vision, mission and message as a brand, and then who are we talking to initially to get that vision, mission and brand statement out there? So our vision, mission, and brand, I say this, we’re up for fun, down for anything. Sometimes we say nice girls finish first. But really what we do is champion everybody to invest in their sexual relationships and health, because that’s going to improve your sexual health. It’ll improve your life, your personal and intimate relationships. So that’s truly our mission. And we believe that mission should be for everybody. We truly do.
26:23
Lara Schmoisman
I agree with you. I mean, I always say that putting hboxes in products, it’s very old fashioned. We need to go more for interest. But if you. I would love to know if you have any data to share with us because I think that a lot of people think that these products only are for young generations, that older women will not be interested and.
26:48
Catherine
Yep. So I can definitely speak to that. I’m just gonna say I think that message is so healthy and every one of us, including myself, because, you know, I have to have these conversations every day and even I get shy, should be focused on their sexual health and how to improve it and how it improves your relationship. Our relationships with our partner is the one of the most important things in our life. Right. And then.
27:15
Lara Schmoisman
And long term.
27:16
Catherine
And long term. And our. In our own health, we have babies, we go through menopause. It’s just, we should be thinking about this every day. It is more important than the skin on our face. I think that’s important. But then one of the going back to who our target customer is, what I would say is we started with meaningful messages to women because they are the ones who, a, have the most sexual health issues, and b, have been thought of the least.
27:50
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. It’s been neglected.
27:52
Catherine
They’ve been underserved. And so we’re patient. You know, our lubricant products are the cleanest, healthiest in the category, bar none. So everyone should be using them. But we are very passionate about educating women on why it’s extra important that what they. That they care about what they put in their body.
28:16
Lara Schmoisman
But what about educating men about how to help their partners, too?
28:22
Catherine
Yep. So 65% of our buyers are women, but 35% of our buyers of men.
28:29
Lara Schmoisman
And way to those men.
28:31
Catherine
Yeah. What we found and we love is this. The shift from the, from me to we. So, so obviously, we have customers that have different sexual orientations and they identify different ways. But what we really love is when we see traditional heterosexual men, think of we. So we get, oh, I think my wife would love this. I think my girlfriend would love this. And that’s fantastic that kind of thinking is prevalent today. And in terms of ages, we actually have all age. We do not have an age. We have young, single women in their twenties. And then we have single women dating again in their sixties. We have married.
29:22
Lara Schmoisman
I love to hear this.
29:23
Catherine
This is really fabulous.
29:26
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. That’s why this is, like we said before, this is about mindset change as well as a health game changer.
29:39
Catherine
And what we found is, and this is another interesting statistic about playground. In particular, one out of two people who buy from us have never bought or tried lube before. So we love that. We’re the gateway drug of choice in the category. But what we really want people to discover is that, a, it’s not embarrassing, b, if you are in a long term relationship, try it because it’ll spice it up. And three, it makes everything feel better. I am constantly shocked about how many women just go through life having painful intercourse. And it’s really, well, there could be. Call us because we’ll help you solve that no matter what. But lubricant definitely is the first thing. Everyone should try to reduce discomfort, but also to have a better time with your partner.
30:37
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. And I love, again, you’re changing the narrative that labrikants are part of, even though you guys are. The playground is not only about play, it’s about pleasure and wellness.
30:54
Catherine
Correct. And there is a benefit for every single person to use lubricant. One of the things we’ve also tried to do is, I say this is a one skew fits all category. Here’s your one water based lubricant. And we don’t believe in that. We don’t believe. We believe if you have aging skin, you shouldn’t use skin. You know, I go back to this because it’s easy for people to relate to.
31:19
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely.
31:20
Catherine
That has acne for young skin. So, for example, we have moodmaker, which is this pleasure enhancing intimacy oil. It’s sensual, it’s silky, and it’s a great, like, if you’ve never used a product before, that’s really great for couples. I say that, you know, young women today get introduced to tampons when they get their period. Well, women going into perimenopause and menopause should be introduced to lubricant.
31:49
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely.
31:51
Catherine
And you will, and you will never turn back once you use it and.
31:57
Lara Schmoisman
People are, well, but see, again, there is not enough conversation about menopause. And what causes the menopause and the effects that you have is something people don’t talk or you talk. Oh, I have hot flashes. But you don’t talk. What sexually does to you.
32:13
Catherine
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like we don’t, you know, certainly takes a few extra minutes to put on skincare or sunscreen before you walk out the door. But we do it. We’ve trained ourselves. It’s not a big deal. And, you know, if you have a beautiful bottle like moon maker, it’s going to take you one to 2 seconds to apply it. We’ve gone really try to elevate that experience and. Yeah. Excited. I’ll give all of your listeners a code. I want everyone to try it. And then email me or dm me directly. Tell me what you think.
32:47
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, we’ll put it in the chapter notes. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for that gift for the audience. So, thank you. And, well, thank you for being so open, so generous for telling us your story and the huddles of also going into this space.
33:06
Catherine
Yeah, no, you and I could sit here and probably talk about it for days.
33:11
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely.
33:12
Catherine
We can go from our coffee to.
33:13
Lara Schmoisman
Our wine and still we definitely can do that. Believe me, there is 05:00 somewhere right now. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for having coffee with me.
33:25
Catherine
Yes, love it. Anytime.
33:28
Lara Schmoisman
And to you guys, I will see you next week with more coffee. Number five.
