Lara Schmoisman (00:01.3)

Hi you guys, welcome back to coffee number five. You know I’m always excited, I cannot say that every episode I’m excited because I get to talk to amazing people and that normally I see them around, we talk for a little bit here and there but never I can get that conversation and I can, I’m curious and I have all these questions so I have the opportunity today to talk to someone that I met her two, three years ago and then…

 

We were busy, life gets in between. At that point, Kate, Fennin, I probably said your last name wrong because I always do it. You were at Estelle O’Der, but your trajectory is incredible. You were at Nimitz, you were at Nordstrom, at Gap, and I’m missing a few ones in between, your experience, but not only that, your point of view is unique.

 

So let’s first welcome, thank you so much for being here. You’re a really hard woman to nail down to a date, but we did it. I’m so glad you’re here. And so something that really resonated with me from our first conversation after you were talking at Beauty Matter was, and this was, was, I’m talking about two years ago, probably three or two and a half. It was your…

 

Kate Fannin (01:01.998)

Thank you. Thank you.

 

We did it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (01:28.798)

Point of view about the consumer and how everything is consumer centric. And I could not agree more about that because everything I do in my agency as a marketer is see what are the consumer problems and to resolve them.

 

Kate Fannin (01:45.634)

Yes, I completely agree. And I call myself the consummate consumer because I am always in stores, online, assessing, evaluating. I even had a friend tell me once, Kate, can we just shop? Can you stop profiling the store? Because I so appreciate how any customer engages, whether it’s with a brand, a store, a channel, content, all of it.

 

Everyone consumes a little bit differently, but the consumer point of view is number one at this point. Marketing isn’t what it used to be in the sense that it was one way. Here’s print I’m showing to you. Here’s commercial. Here’s a billboard. Here’s a radio ad. Now it’s two way. 100 % you have to listen to the consumer. If you’re not listening,

 

Lara Schmoisman (02:32.616)

There it is.

 

You’re giving me the chills. You are just saying the same thing I’ve been talking about for years and years. And now actually in this 2025, we are getting to the next level, which is SEO is everywhere. I mean, everything in the algorithm is going to be real. Like each platform, Instagram, TikTok, Amazon, everyone is a search engine in themselves. So

 

Kate Fannin (02:50.487)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lara Schmoisman (03:00.892)

you need to start using keywords and this is how we need to approach to reach to our consumers.

 

Kate Fannin (03:08.686)

100 % and the listening is key as I mentioned and the other piece is you know, they’re shopping like you said everywhere. They’re consuming everywhere. So it isn’t even it’s beyond omni-channel. I don’t even like that term anymore. It’s channel agnostic. So the way people shop in online versus a store versus tik-tok, it’s not the same and you have to think about not only your content, but your context.

 

So the content you’re developing, how are they receiving it? How are they engaging with it? Because a lot of online, frankly, not super exciting. It’s replenishment or research. There’s a ton of research going on, that’s one of my really what I should TM trademark is I say that people buy things. They pay for experiences. Very different.

 

Lara Schmoisman (03:36.883)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (04:03.052)

So you buy stuff when you go to the store or grocery or whatever, you buy stuff on Amazon, but you pay for an experience, whether it is an online engagement, whether it’s trying the makeup on virtually, whether it’s in store talking to a human, touching, smelling, trying, that’s an experience. People will pay for that. Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (04:26.504)

That’s so interesting you saying this because I’m reading a book completely, well, nothing is not connected anymore. Everything is connected. But this is, it was telling the experience of

 

A consultant who went was hired to see why a store, was a big name store, wasn’t working and what they were, their sales were not bigger. They were not growing and what was their failing. And they found out that the failure was actually in the sales process. That people that they go to a store, they are expecting to have a different experience. And the salespeople.

 

saying hey I don’t want to approach because maybe I don’t make the sale so they weren’t grading or approaching the customer for the needs or the experience that they expect by going to a store.

 

Kate Fannin (05:26.766)

Well, and stores even that has evolved so much and how you work with a customer, engage with them, talk to them, as simple as saying, hey, welcome in. That makes a difference than just somebody walking in and you get the once over. That’s a huge difference between whether I’m going to buy something or not.

 

Lara Schmoisman (05:40.788)

Huge.

 

Kate Fannin (05:48.256)

I recently went to, I’m a knitter, so I was in a yarn warehouse basically, and it wasn’t even that organized, yarn everywhere, but the guy who owns the store and is a knitting master was so lovely and so wonderful in teaching me and showing me and recommending this versus this. He was so authentic. I went in for one thing. Of course I bought six or seven. I mean, because it was an engaging experience. I would pay for that versus.

 

Lara Schmoisman (06:16.884)

Absolutely. mean, let’s agree like products, for example, beauty products. We don’t need those beauty products. We want those beauty products. But if someone can explain what they potentially can do for us or how to use it and they make that experience, knowledge is power.

 

Kate Fannin (06:17.582)

Here’s one. Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (06:25.175)

Okay.

 

Kate Fannin (06:40.142)

100 % and it’s people looking are now looking for efficacy, right? What does the product do for me, especially in beauty? And you can research everywhere. Even if it’s just your friends telling your friend posting, hey guys, I tried this and it’s awesome. And that’s how I post. I’m not an influencer, but I’ll post something and say this worked.

 

Lara Schmoisman (06:45.011)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (07:00.95)

I really recommend it. And my friends will say, I trust you, Kate, you’ve been in beauty a long time. Where else are they going to do compare all their research? So you will go online. And that’s another thing that I stand behind really strongly that I heard, know, Jane Lauder was the first one who said it, but return on experience, ROE.

 

You’ll hear me say that every time I’m talking because you can’t talk about just ROI anymore because I might go into your store or try one of your products. It might take me a month, two months, six months to try more of that. But that is the experience that you return on versus she came in, she didn’t buy. No ROI. Watch me.

 

Lara Schmoisman (07:38.98)

It’s about, yeah, it’s experience, but even in digital, it’s the same thing. It’s about creating a pleasant experience. you need to, like in marketing, we talk about always those pillars. Those pillars are the different kinds of information that you’re feeding your customer in little pieces at a time to get to know your brand and later on to make a decision. And this is for, goes for new brands that even if you have a decent budget, not huge budget and you’re

 

Kate Fannin (07:46.54)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (08:08.864)

spending money every month is about the awareness and people to get to know the brand and to trust and then see the difference with one product and try another one and then when they become recurrent then you need to maintain that client.

 

Kate Fannin (08:25.964)

Yes, because you’re right, I might have just tried one, but how do get me to try more? How do you link sell? How do you get me involved further in the brand? And now with data everywhere, there’s no excuse to say, well, we didn’t reach out. We don’t have your information. Nobody doesn’t have my information at this point. It’s too easy, whether it is through an email, which now seems kind of old, right? Getting an email promotion versus.

 

Lara Schmoisman (08:52.85)

No, don’t touch my emails. I’m still an email believer.

 

Kate Fannin (08:57.472)

I am too, don’t get me wrong. But I wish people would be a little more diligent about subscribing and unsubscribing because once you get too many, they don’t look at anything. So I think that’s another area of opportunity for sure is how do you cut through an email.

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:05.842)

Yes. I know.

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:13.874)

think this is a brand’s responsibility too, not to send emails to everyone all the time, just to send them to the people that are engaging for you. Exactly. And it’s something that I do all the time for my clients is I create campaigns. When you create the strategy, your strategy is not, let’s send emails to everyone all the time, is let’s send emails to the ones who engage with us or they bought this product. So it’s time to refill the product.

 

Kate Fannin (09:20.888)

Target them. Yes, yes, it’s the same.

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:42.8)

It’s to think it a little more through and not to be that brand that sends and sends emails.

 

Kate Fannin (09:43.149)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (09:48.75)

No, nobody wants to be bombarded because then you’re it’s noise and you’re right with people that have engaged even if they haven’t purchased That’s engagement that you see the emails that say oh we saw that you were taking a look We saw that you have this in your basket. I kind of like those they remind me. Oh, yeah, I got distracted and I didn’t or Why didn’t I purchase did I find something else? Was I distracted or did I get hit up with another ad or a better email?

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:59.751)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (10:18.754)

Those are all things that weigh into being a consumer. And if the brand or the retailer is not evaluating this, they’ll be lost completely. They will not be gaining. They’ll be losing market share because somebody else is going to take that space. If you’re not listening.

 

Lara Schmoisman (10:36.404)

I love that you mentioned that, that these are metrics that a lot of people forget to check. Like how many people really put our product in the cart? That is an almost win, but it’s not a win. Why did we fail to make the transaction? So how do you analyze that?

 

Kate Fannin (10:44.173)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (10:55.862)

Mm-hmm. Well, it’s engagement, a lot of it. Well, some of it is, did you close? Did you close the loop? I still always use the example, and I love it, of a car dealership, right? Where you go in there, you’re looking around, and it’s a joke, but not really when they say, what’s it gonna take to get you in the car today? What’s it gonna take to have you click by or to walk up on the register in the store?

 

Lara Schmoisman (11:09.544)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (11:24.01)

Is it a point of purchase sale? I think about the grocery, you know, all the candy that’s right there. There’s a reason it’s there. You’re gonna grab it and, you know, buy it there too. So there’s a reason that beauty products, they keep certain things at the register. I’m also a huge advocate of link selling and think it’s a massive opportunity that, especially in beauty, they don’t always follow through on, which is…

 

You bought the lipstick. I might be new to beauty. Do I need a liner? Do I need a gloss? Do I even know what to do with those? You have to think further down the line of, great, I sold her a lipstick. What do I do next? Do I need a primer?

 

Lara Schmoisman (12:00.464)

But so that lipstick, that lipstick will go really well with this liner or this lipstick. Even you can go in social and you can, this is something that I’m a super fan and it’s collaboration. Like it’s what brand that is not, it’s not your competition. I don’t believe in competition. I believe that there are room for everyone. but.

 

How we align and you can align, let’s say you are still there and maybe you align with Cococin now. And so you can put in social say this will match with this great and it’s aspirational and it’s give it to people the whole look.

 

Kate Fannin (12:34.764)

Yes. Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (12:40.15)

Well, look at a brand like Elf. I mean, they have have collaborated with Tripotle, for instance. I mean, they’re all over the board. Mac, of course, has collaborated with tons of celebrities, singers, etc. themes, Wonder Woman, all of those. And there’s a comfort to that, especially if I’m new to a brand or I find it intimidating. But I know the collaborator. So again, that goes back to the experience of it or

 

A lot of these things can be intimidating. So we mentioned the lipstick liner. Great. Take it a step further. What’s the service? I don’t know how to use those. I need a how to, whether it’s online or right there in the store. Don’t take it for granted that people understand just because you sold them a product, especially something like a serum. That’s another one that I think my friends, you know, on our fifties still say, and they’re embarrassed to ask me, Kate, what, what’s the serum? I don’t, I don’t really know what to do with it.

 

because it’s out there, it’s promoted.

 

Lara Schmoisman (13:38.42)

I’m just, I’m laughing because I have the same question asked to me so many times. And you’ll be surprised of people saying, I really need a face cleanser. That’s the one that is like, stop. Everyone needs a face cleanser. Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (13:44.524)

Right.

 

Kate Fannin (13:55.566)

A cleanser? Yes, yeah. mean, certainly young men, so my nephews, I try to educate them on skincare and said, guys, don’t be scared. You really only need a few products to start out, but please clean your skin. Please. You don’t need nine moisturizers and all these other things and under eye creams. You’re only 20. But.

 

Lara Schmoisman (14:12.082)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (14:18.542)

Please clean your skin and if you don’t know where to start, I’ll help you. You could start at CVS and we’ll start there. You don’t have to buy Tom Ford. I mean, we can get you into this without being scary. But again, that’s part of the service element for a customer. We have to break down these barriers just because there’s all this information doesn’t know, doesn’t mean they know how to consume it. Doesn’t mean they know exactly what to do with it. There’s almost too much information.

 

Lara Schmoisman (14:24.189)

Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (14:45.332)

And it doesn’t mean that a brand that you buy at CVS is not gonna do for you what the Tom Ford brand does. mean, Kate, why a consumer might choose to buy in CVS instead of Ford or the other way around?

 

Kate Fannin (14:55.672)

Totally, totally. I’m a huge fan of drug stores.

 

Kate Fannin (15:10.124)

Well, a lot of depends on what’s the need and what are they exposed to already? Are their friends telling this? Is crazy Aunt Kate telling them this? Are they seeing things online? Again, we’re being hit up with ads everywhere. You’re even seeing product placement in TV shows and I don’t know if you’re watching the show Landman, but clearly, Michelob Ultra.

 

is doing a partnership with them. It’s in every bar scene there. So it depends on how they’re getting the information. But if they, some of it’s just plain old budget. So I need to start with Sarah Va, fantastic. I’m a big, like I said, big fan of drug stores. And now the drug store beauty section is really engaging. I mean, look at Target. It’s fantastic. I’ll go wander around there anytime.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:56.756)

Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (15:59.66)

And I’ll bring friends in and say, let me show you how awesome Target Beauty and Target at Ulta have become. And now I’m finding that Sephora for a lot of people is overwhelming or it’s too young. I’m finding that friends around my age, 40s, 50s are saying, that’s for my kids. I’ll take her in and I’ll buy her her things, but you know, it’s not really where I consume.

 

Lara Schmoisman (16:22.972)

Yeah, it’s just too… I agree with you, the experience is too much for the ones who we know what we want and what we need. But… Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (16:32.908)

Yeah, and we’re even we’re in the beauty field and sometimes it’s overwhelming And it changes so much too. That’s the other thing. So, you know one thing I learned at know at Nordstrom is Be cautious on how quickly you change especially trends Because people don’t consume as often as we are selling and promoting they only they might buy beauty twice a year

 

Lara Schmoisman (16:49.085)

Yep.

 

Lara Schmoisman (16:56.178)

Yeah, well, that’s, think it’s a point that you just made about in that case, a forum might be a little going too young that people younger, they need to change more often. Older generation, we want more the classics, more that less options. And I want information. I mean, I believe that now there are some trigger words that they are cruelty free. At this point, everyone should be cruelty free. At this point,

 

Kate Fannin (17:15.084)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (17:22.892)

Yes, sustainability.

 

Lara Schmoisman (17:25.382)

Exactly. Everyone is trying for sustainability.

 

Clean beauty. Everyone should have the basic clean beauty standards. So it’s like how we raise the bar, how we make the difference. I’ve seen so many brands, new brands just doing the same over and over. It’s like you cannot compete with the big brands. So what are you doing different? You need to do something either from your ingredients or your branding or something that will make you stand out from the crowd.

 

Kate Fannin (17:44.92)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (17:50.04)

Exactly.

 

Kate Fannin (17:57.432)

Well, or go one further is what problem are you solving for me? That’s, you know, it goes back to efficacy. whether it is I have dry skin, well, there’s tons of moisturizers out there. What makes yours different? Same thing with the collection of your products.

 

Lara Schmoisman (18:01.908)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (18:16.32)

If you have 19 products that say that they are good for dry skin, I’m out. I don’t know where to start. So you have to be really diligent about how you are targeting and attracting consumers. I love that the smaller brands start with three SKUs. You talked about this on a previous podcast. I think it’s so true, especially if a founder is involved.

 

They have such a passion, which I so admire and respect, but the marketing piece of it or the engagement piece of it has to think a little bit ahead. So are we going to be adding to the line? Are we moving into another category? If your nails, you know, nail polish, are you going to move into hand creams and further that go up the arm? If you will, if it’s a face product, skincare, are you going to move into body product or do you want to stay?

 

small. So I think a big part of it is collection, if you will. What’s the connection? So you have a big collection. How am I connected?

 

Lara Schmoisman (19:17.428)

I always say you have a brand because you’re working on the branding, you’re working on the problem, you’re working on who is your target audience and to resolve their problem or you have a collection of products that you’re selling and that’s completely fine but also that will tell you where you can sell because unless you are Chanel or you’re a big brand that you can really diversify and do it well everywhere, if you’re a younger brand

 

and you have a collection of products, you are going to miss that special thing that makes you unique, that is your hero, what you are known for.

 

Kate Fannin (19:55.693)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (19:59.35)

Right, as a founder, sometimes you have one shot out of the gate. And for instance, if you launch with skincare, but then six months later, you’ve got some sort of nail polish, I’m confused. What is your focus? And you have to be passionate as a founder behind why you’re launching this. What is it solving? Again, I go back to, I’ve got a pain point that I’m solving.

 

Lara Schmoisman (20:16.839)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (20:24.18)

And as a founder, it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work to launch a line. And if you start going, you’re not working with labs, you’re working with packaging, you’re working with formulation, you’re working with ingredients. There’s so many distribution, 3PL, so many things that if you are starting to diversify and you don’t have the support and the team, things are going to start falling through the cracks.

 

Kate Fannin (20:31.598)

Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (20:54.572)

Yes, and ultimately it’s a passion project for a founder. You’re going to work 24-7 because you believe in it and you want to stand behind it. And the storytelling is so important.

 

And that’s why, again, when you launch out of the gate, what is your perspective? Why is this going to market? Why is it being created? I think another example you gave in another podcast was about the science. Do you need to include the science? It depends on your target market. If somebody’s 22 versus 62, it’s a very different way of consuming. Very different. And how they research and what they want in the product, what they’ll pay. Even the packaging has a huge impact on how they’re

 

Lara Schmoisman (21:36.176)

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I when I, I love to work with brands from the very beginning, I love to work from the conception and I don’t believe, and we were discussing about this, that everything, it should be a long process because trends are important to what’s going on in the industry. So you can’t be waiting and trying to make, have the perfect product.

 

Kate Fannin (21:36.676)

engaging.

 

Kate Fannin (21:45.39)

Mm.

 

Kate Fannin (21:59.202)

Yep. Yep.

 

Lara Schmoisman (22:06.448)

and take own, it’s never perfect because by the time you get it at the perfection, the time was gone. And you have 20 other products that they are competing with yours. But I believe that since that, go ahead.

 

Kate Fannin (22:13.356)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (22:18.028)

Well, and with.

 

Yeah, with a small brand, you have to be agile because you’re competing against these larger brands that have been around forever, something in the L’Oreal space, something in the Estee Lauder space, where their time to market is quite long because there’s a workforce behind this and the lab and the science and the packaging and the levels you have to go through versus if you’re five people and a founder.

 

Lara Schmoisman (22:34.632)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (22:46.638)

You better turn that around pretty quickly and you can be more agile as you get it to market. You might only be in two boutiques or on Amazon, but turn it around.

 

Lara Schmoisman (22:54.896)

Also, because as a younger brand, you’re not going to have access to the technologies or the pricing that a big brand has. And it’s challenging. So you need to be fast. Time is money.

 

Kate Fannin (23:04.984)

Sure, you don’t have the…

 

Very fast. But again, you can be super agile with, nobody bought my brown eyeliner. I need to switch that up quick. And you know a little bit advanced, you’re not usually over-inventoryed because you have to start small anyway. So it’s almost like a pilot. You have the great advantage of putting a few things out there, see how they’re consumed, who’s buying them, and you can switch it around pretty quickly.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:13.694)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:34.224)

And also let’s talk about a few other things that there are regulations that change and there are like standards and change. So you might need to pivot or an ingredient that becomes unavailable. There’s so many issues.

 

Kate Fannin (23:39.33)

Mm-hmm.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (23:48.46)

Yes, and now that people are, yeah, they’re so aware of ingredients now and customers know if you have an ingredient list of five versus 25. If I can’t pronounce half of them, I might be a little reluctant, especially if it’s coming from a smaller founder, smaller brand. So again, they’re looking at everything and the customer will tell you.

 

Lara Schmoisman (24:12.468)

And honestly, if you’re a smaller brand, your marketing needs to be very tight. That’s one of the biggest advice that I can give you. Your packaging needs to be beautiful and perfect and clean, and your logo needs to be clean. I’ve seen so many young brands having different logos in different places. That’s not brand awareness. You’re creating a confusion.

 

Kate Fannin (24:32.416)

Mm-hmm.

 

No, it’s inconsistency and ultimately they don’t know who you are or what you stand for. And you’re right, if the site experience is extremely different from the package or your own website is not the way that Amazon is depicting it.

 

It’s really confusing because people as I said, they’re channel agnostic if I see your product You know in the store and I know it and I’ve used it and that logo and the name. yeah, I’ll pick one up It’s part of the story and I think that’s what is important with a founder too is What is your story? What do you stand behind whether it’s three words or a paragraph? But stick with it because the customer will learn

 

Lara Schmoisman (25:17.158)

And, and yeah, of course I call that the brand story for each one of my brands. create something that is a brand story, who is our consumer, where we found that we know absolutely everything. What are the problems? And, and then when we sign off on this brand story, this is a brand story and it’s not going to be changed. And you need to walk the talk.

 

Kate Fannin (25:22.382)

you

 

Kate Fannin (25:37.858)

Yeah. Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (25:39.804)

You need to, you cannot say, like tomatoes, I like tomatoes. They say, I know, I don’t like tomatoes. That you confuse your audience.

 

Kate Fannin (25:45.454)

You do and it’s I mean that’s part of your brand equity that people should be really proud of and that they want to stand behind that makes a huge difference also on consumer loyalty. So if if your story as a founder is strong and you always stick behind it, I’m a customer who loves your brand. I’m going to be one of your advocates. I’m going to talk about it on social. I’m going to tell my friends. I’m going to keep buying it. I’ll give you feedback directly.

 

Lara Schmoisman (26:14.516)

you

 

Kate Fannin (26:14.891)

It’s you create your own marketing base with your customers if you have a consistent message and a consistent brand.

 

Lara Schmoisman (26:17.3)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (26:25.019)

absolutely and

 

But there is a lot more and this is not only going for beauty brands, that goes for every brand. They need to be a passionate team. It’s not only about the founder. It’s about the whole team and whoever is involved in the process to make this brand. From the packaging, from your chemists, everyone needs to be in the same direction. So when you start the brand and you can be a big company or you can be a small company, I don’t care. Everyone needs to be on board with the

 

same beliefs and to have the same understanding. I mean, you can have it from manufacturing. I believe that we have it in marketing. My SEO people need to understand the brand as the same as my designer, because otherwise they’re going to be giving completely different messages.

 

Kate Fannin (27:13.806)

So look at an example, this is a little bit out of certainly out of the realm is Chick-fil-A

 

Everyone knows that you’re going to get a super high level of service and down to the people in the store are so nice. All of them are nice and they’re known for that. So that’s part of their brand equity or Red Wing. I love Red Wing. It’s a legacy brand started in sort of construction and boots and but it’s very fashion forward. If you sell it right and stand behind it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (27:19.997)

Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (27:41.948)

or, yeah.

 

Or let’s talk about Trader Joe’s, that everyone is so friendly and they’re gonna tell you how your day goes. And that’s part of the brand story too, of how you gonna interact with your consumer. So if you have a brand, you cannot forget how you’re gonna talk to that person and how you’re gonna talk to them in TikTok and how we’re gonna talk to them in Instagram, that is what we mentioned before, in different channels, but you cannot lose who you are.

 

Kate Fannin (27:49.846)

Yep. Yep.

 

Kate Fannin (27:54.755)

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (28:12.704)

Exactly and the same with the service level. So for instance, know Whole Foods I believe their their service level has declined Since they were you know, kind of bought by Amazon and then pandemic didn’t help them either But I remember how special it was to go to Whole Foods and now it’s not as special

 

Lara Schmoisman (28:22.344)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (28:32.456)

I feel like I was going to go for foods and there were experts that I can talk to. Like in the vitamin areas, I felt like there were someone that I can really talk to. Now I don’t feel that even there were, that’s not that quality, but.

 

Kate Fannin (28:38.188)

There. Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (28:49.3)

There is something, I mean, you’ve been in working in companies that have stores, physical stores, and this is a challenge that I see a lot of brands having from transitioning from D to C or to be little here and there to get into retail and then educating. Because to me, that’s a whole different part of marketing that the brand is when you sign a partnership with someone, you need to start that part of marketing. You cannot just…

 

Kate Fannin (28:56.417)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (28:59.917)

Mm-hmm.

 

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (29:19.254)

say I’m done now I got in

 

Kate Fannin (29:23.116)

You’re so right and I will always hold dear to me is stores because I grew up in stores, started on the sales floor and I always encourage anybody that’s going to work for a brand, you need to work in a store. You need to see how customers interact with your brand and in fact, think about some of these large companies that I’ve worked for is, are they in the store? Does leadership get into the store very often? I can tell you right now that Nordstrom does. The Nordstrom family,

 

was often in the store so that they understood what was going on. And in fact, I still fully respect their inverted pyramid, which means the customers were always on the top. Leadership was on the bottom of the pyramid because that’s who comes first. And right below them were Salesforce sales team. All the people that were sellers, highly respected because just as you said, if you’re not engaging the salespeople and educating them, then again, you’re going to be sunk.

 

because you want them to be passionate about your service, your product, your brand. That is a huge part of engagement. And I’ll tell you that stores in general, they never went anywhere. They’re still there and people say, stores are back. Little fact, but during pandemic online sales didn’t really outpace stores in certain categories. They didn’t because stores are still super important. They’re not going anywhere. They didn’t go away. It’s just,

 

different way to handle that channel. Now if you haven’t updated your selling model in a store, you might be declining a little bit, but

 

Lara Schmoisman (30:58.196)

Tell me a little more about what’s this upgrade selling style? What are you talking about? What are you talking about? This upgrading of the sales floors.

 

Kate Fannin (31:02.414)

Say that again.

 

Kate Fannin (31:08.238)

That’s the link selling so yeah, you start with though you came in just for some shoes Well, let me also show you the sandals in the same brand or am I selling you the socks and the boots? And the insoles you should be Absolutely, or at least show me and that’s another thing that Nordstrom did so well as they bring you out one pair of shoes But I brought I brought you two others that are similar or from a different brand I’m just gonna try all of those on and you know going back to my yarn store example is

 

If you are nice to me and you just chat with me and tell me more about your expertise or your brand, Gucci is the same way. There’s a beautiful Gucci store in Soho in New York. Wow. Are they engaging, but on a relatable level? And that is a huge part of it too. When you go into a store and there’s four things hanging and it’s all white walls and I don’t even know where the register is, it’s very intimidating. It’s like a museum. I don’t really know what to do in here.

 

But if it is, hey, how you doing? Even if it’s in a luxury space, that’s awesome. Or a Dyson store where you can use all the products. I should be able to try the products. Otherwise, how do I know?

 

Lara Schmoisman (32:17.62)

Well, it’s also about authority. These brands that you’re mentioning, they all create their own authority. They work hard to get that authority and that authority means credibility. So you go into the Berlin knowing that you’re not going to go wrong. So there is no doubt.

 

Kate Fannin (32:29.293)

Yes.

 

Yes, I mean look at GAP there.

 

Kate Fannin (32:38.47)

It’s right and true. There’s a reason they’ve been around. They’ve evolved. I look at Gap, who had a little bit of a dip, but now they’re coming back by going back to their legacy and what made them so popular and going back to that same marketing element. And what do we stand for? Denim. We’re coming back around that. Great. Look at J. Crew printing a catalog again. Awesome.

 

so people can experience things. I do too. A lot more coming back to print.

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:06.47)

I love that. love to go. I mean, I believe that there’s so many marketers that actually they underestimate the power of printing and their own school.

 

Kate Fannin (33:20.294)

I agree. 100%. I’ve even seen some D to C brands have sent me mailers and I thought, wow, that’s pretty impressive. So and on a side note, I’ve even been at recent conferences and dinners where people have said, can I get your card? So people are going back to business cards because once you’re funding Yeah. Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:41.14)

Oh yeah. I mean, I never stop. There is an experience of giving a business card. A business card tells you so much of who you are and what you stand for. because it’s a design. And it’s when you… Yeah. And also, for example, I wrote, like when I gave a business card, I remember the experience of giving. It reminds you who gave it to you.

 

Kate Fannin (33:47.533)

Yes!

 

Kate Fannin (33:54.538)

Or you could make a note. Yeah, like we met at Beauty Matter. Yep.

 

Kate Fannin (34:09.038)

Yes, that’s why I you know, I think it’s so smart to have them now and I will write on it actually like we met at shop talk and it was at this dinner Then you can follow up and I can write you an actual email instead of just a LinkedIn message which sometimes you’re limited now and so

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:27.226)

Absolutely. And honestly, this been happening to me a lot. I’ve been, I’m the only one with business cards and I need to find people later on in LinkedIn and, did we need to, it’s like, it’s not the same.

 

Kate Fannin (34:42.518)

Where there’s and that goes back to context, hugely important. And I think that’s what we tend to forget in the online and AI world. And again, look how far we chatted without saying AI. So, know, points to us, but you know, I love it. I wouldn’t call it old school as much as maybe authentic analog.

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:46.43)

Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:57.222)

Yes, that shows how old school we are.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:06.708)

Okay, authentic school. love that. But as important as think AI is, we use it, and I actually encourage my team to use it all the time because we cannot get behind, but I think we still need to be the brain behind AI. But I love what you were saying about context because the context is who your brand is, for who is related, and you need to have part of that narrative. Like it comes from packaging.

 

Kate Fannin (35:10.176)

Yeah. Yep.

 

Kate Fannin (35:17.326)

Sure. Yeah.

 

It’s non-negotiable.

 

Kate Fannin (35:30.701)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:36.442)

even what ingredients you’re going to be using. For example, if you’re going to be using a retinoid in beauty, you’re going to want to think, okay, retinoids is for certain skin concerns or for mature skin. You’re not going to go for a young brand.

 

Kate Fannin (35:37.038)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (35:51.19)

No. Well, and think about a founder. What we were saying is if the founder is so passionate and wants to tell their story, if they go right to AI, it’s not authentic.

 

Because remember, and I think not enough people say this, is that AI is two dimensional, at least right now. Who knows? A little bit later, but right now it’s two dimensional. There’s no emotion involved in it. And there’s no more than a couple of senses, right? You can hear it, you can see it, but you can’t smell it, you can’t taste it, you can’t touch it. So especially in a beauty product, you can tell me a huge story in paragraphs about how we made this and the science behind it, and you’ll love it, and even show me the pictures

 

of it, I still can’t smell it. I still can’t touch it. So we’re not that evolved yet. So I agree with you. AI is going to be table stakes. It’s a non-negotiable. It’s going to change our world. Absolutely. So we can’t discount it, but we do have to put it in context. I liken it to when we launched the internet. Same thing. Everybody, whoa, it’s going to change the world. It did, 100%. But.

 

Lara Schmoisman (36:50.758)

Absolutely.

 

Lara Schmoisman (36:58.6)

but slowly.

 

Kate Fannin (36:59.022)

It took some steps. Yes, just like the iPhone. I think AI right now is about it and iPhone level two. Remember when iPhone started? Super cool. Change every, what are we at? iPhone, you know, 15. So it’s 16. Yeah, it’s gonna take a minute. So it’s not the end all be all. I think a lot of people are scared of it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:12.116)

16, yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:19.196)

But like what you were saying two dimensional is the same with brands that they’re only thinking about the founder and the founder, you’re not just the only problem to resolve. And this I’m talking about any kind of brands, not only beauty brands. You might have a problem, but you need to make sure that others once have it as well.

 

Kate Fannin (37:27.309)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (37:40.398)

Yes, I mean you’re

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:40.848)

And also you need to know your numbers because if there are not enough people having that problem, you might not be able to get the return of investment.

 

Kate Fannin (37:50.86)

That’s a great point that yeah, you might be solving a problem, but is it for 10 people or is it for 10,000 people? That’s a big difference. A lot of investment has to go into a new product. So is it worth it? Now that one, I’ll give you the ROI, the classic KPI of return on investment for sure.

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:58.269)

Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:08.664)

Yeah, absolutely. I’ve seen and I tell this story so many times that my husband is a product designer.

 

And there’s so many people that come to him with product ideas. And the first thing he asked is, did you do your research? And nobody did it. And there were always someone who did it before, very few times that we found something so unique. Then cost of manufacture, what is going to cost you? But then what is your market research? It’s somewhat interesting then in buying your product. And you need to know all these things before you start investing.

 

Kate Fannin (38:23.374)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (38:46.668)

Yes. mean, think about, I was gonna say, think about Shark Tank. know, you have to have, that’s the right one, right? Where you propose your product and whether or not it’s, yeah, it’s good enough. But if you don’t do your research, again, where’s the authenticity of it? What problem am I solving? Is there efficacy to it if it’s a beauty brand, things like that? So.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:47.154)

or finding investors.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:58.376)

to pitch, yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (39:14.88)

A lot has to go into building your brand other than I’m so passionate about X product and let me tell you why I’m so passionate. Everybody’s passionate about something, but you’re right. There’s tons of them out there for the most part. Yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (39:27.421)

Yeah.

 

So get your data. Get data doesn’t lie. So when you’re going to go and get any kind of product, you need to make sure that you can be as passionate as you want. And you want to be passionate and you want your team to be even obsessed with your product because that’s what is going to make you wake up in the morning and keep going. But you want to make sure that you have the data behind you supporting you. So you know that there is someone out there that it will take

 

time and I’m not gonna lie about this will take time it’s not gonna be an overnight success because actually you should be afraid of an overnight success and but you need to make sure that you have all the pieces of the puzzle so later on you can really build that brand and be successful.

 

Kate Fannin (40:13.198)

you

 

Kate Fannin (40:19.16)

Totally agree, totally agree. And it goes, you know, it’s the old trajectory of can I attract the customer? Can I engage them? Will they convert? And then will they come back? So you have to kind of think about all of these in your product. You might be able to engage them, but nobody’s buying it because there’s another competitive product that’s better. Or I took in this new awesome customer base and they’re not very interested. Okay, well then what do you do? Or they buy it once and don’t come back.

 

That’s a problem too. since they’re your, guess what? They’re your new marketers. They’re telling other people about it. They’re posting, they’re sharing. Then you have to treat your consumer the right way. I mean, and that comes back to how do people consume the consumption element.

 

Lara Schmoisman (41:05.544)

Yeah, absolutely. before we go, and I promise this will be my last question, because you’ve been in so many spaces, you went from denim to a store like Nordstrom, but then you were in a beauty related. What do you see? Cause I’m a big believer that you cannot put just brands, whatever brand you’re

 

Kate Fannin (41:12.654)

you

 

Lara Schmoisman (41:33.112)

category you are in, just put it in a box. You’re part of the trend, you’re part of a bigger ecosystem of how you interconnect. So how do you see the future of retail interconnecting brands or not?

 

Kate Fannin (41:48.43)

Mmm. It’s a great question because some of it’s we have to wait and see some of it is Interpreting again how your customer is consuming your product and where what are the right channels? That’s a big piece of it, too

 

and understanding everything from the product development and the packaging, the whole circle of the branding and the product. Where does it fit in to what retail element? And I think you’ve said this also before is you need to come out of the gate sort of knowing who your audience is. It could certainly evolve and change, but you can’t come out of the gate saying, we’re going to target just Gen Z, that’s it. Are you sure that’s the right way to go?

 

Lara Schmoisman (42:30.868)

Well, also because your audience is going to evolve. Your Gen Z is going to grow and they’re going to be, then comes Gen Alpha. So you need to make very strategic decisions. How are you going to be, keep growing with your audience, but at the same time, keep bringing new audiences as well.

 

Kate Fannin (42:35.31)

Yeah.

 

Kate Fannin (42:51.214)

Well, and are generations even going to be relevant anymore? The fact that the boomer generation, everyone discounted them several years ago and now look at the spending in that space, the 60, 70, 80 year olds and, know, Gen X, we feel a little bit ignored, but there’s a lot of spending power in Gen X.

 

Millennials no one talks about Millennials anymore, but they were you know everybody was focused on them So I think that might be a little bit outdated the fact that we all have to target Gen Z

 

Lara Schmoisman (43:22.036)

Absolutely. saw again, unless very certain products that is very child-focused and certain age or mature skin, don’t believe in boxes. I think we had to do it because we didn’t have other tools before. Now we can target people by interest, by other things, even by zip code or what they like. Even, I mean, you can target if they like Madonna music.

 

Kate Fannin (43:30.968)

Sure, right. Sure.

 

Kate Fannin (43:38.638)

Great point.

 

Kate Fannin (43:43.532)

Yes.

 

Kate Fannin (43:48.62)

vote.

 

You’ll notice the 80s is super trendy and even the dress and the clothes that go clothing and the style and everything and I mean I’m still waiting for somebody a brand to and maybe if you have gone after the daughter the mother and the grandmother I think Olay did that at one point because it’s a huge opportunity people are living longer

 

Lara Schmoisman (43:55.773)

Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (44:11.635)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kate Fannin (44:15.246)

women over 60, 70, 80 are really back into their skincare and how they look and feel and are they changing their hair or?

 

Lara Schmoisman (44:23.668)

But guess what? You have the younger generations teaching them that and the importance.

 

Kate Fannin (44:28.992)

Yeah, great point. It’s a great point because they consume in a different way than certainly a Gen Z. So do we level that out? Are you going to send a 75 year old? Are you going to target her in a Sephora? Maybe not, but could you target her in an Ulta and Target? For sure. Are you going to advertise on TikTok for a 75 year old? Not likely. So thinking about your channels.

 

Lara Schmoisman (44:54.578)

But maybe you’re gonna, I think it’s seasonal too. You can advertise on TikTok when it’s the time to give a gift for the holidays for grandma or for your mother.

 

Kate Fannin (45:03.867)

Mmm, sure, sure. But grandma’s not shopping on TikTok, most likely.

 

Lara Schmoisman (45:09.092)

No, but you could buy five gifts for grandma.

 

Kate Fannin (45:12.588)

That’s true. And in a store environment, they need to look at too, is it just older women coming in? That’s another one that, you know, sort of I get a little disgruntled about as people saying, you know, department stores, they’re so old. That’s still the bulk of the business for a an older beauty brand, somebody that’s been around for a long time.

 

the bulk of their business is still in a department store. So we need to respect that and understand that they might be changing. Certainly Sachs and Neiman’s combining and then Nordstrom being bought. So a lot of these things are going to change. I’ve heard that I believe Lord and Taylor might be coming back. but they’re,

 

They’re still staying on the trajectory of customers are still consuming with us, our retailers. Now might be more online, it might be in the social space, but they’re still extremely relevant. And we’ll continue to see that, absolutely.

 

Lara Schmoisman (46:08.89)

Absolutely. Well, Kate, thank you so much. This was such a great talk and we went all over the place, but I loved every minute of it.

 

Kate Fannin (46:16.302)

You did. had such a blast and as you can see, I’m very passionate about it. So don’t forget people buy things, but they pay for experiences. So I hope we have other consumers out there that love to consume. Keep doing it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (46:26.853)

Exactly.

 

Lara Schmoisman (46:32.006)

Yes, it’s what keeps economy going.

 

Kate Fannin (46:35.679)

Absolutely.

 

Lara Schmoisman (46:36.724)

And to you guys, thank you for being here today and I will see you next week with more Coffee Number 5.