00:02
Lara Schmoisman
Hello. Hello. Welcome back to coffee number five. My coffee is ready and warm this time. I just got it because I’m really excited about this chat that we’re having today. Actually, were just talking a little bit about it before we start recording, and I know that you guys are in for a treat, so I want you to join me to welcome Travis Paul Martin. Hi, Travis, how are you? 

00:27
Travis
Hi. I’m well, thank you. Thank you for having me. 

00:30
Lara Schmoisman
And I’ve been having a lot of conversations with Travis in the last few months, and I really admire how he thinks and what he brings to brands and his specialization. You know, you guys, that I, you know what I say, shoemakers to your shoes, everyone here that I often say it and I value specialization because right now our ecosystem is so big and there are so many moving pieces that I cannot explain to you how many nights I get staying late just to get trained in some more tools. And it’s like never ending. And then there’s always updates. And there are updates. So welcome, Travis. And so you want to tell us a little more about you and because you have an amazing trajectory. 

01:20
Travis
Sure. So I’ve been in the greater pr world for, I think, a little over 15 years now. I started my career in the fashion pr space at an incredible agency in New York called KCD. I worked on mainly american brands and a lot of emerging brands. So do re and Peter Somm, who are like, from the, you know, first class of the CFDA, Vogue Fashion Fund, Tabitha Simmons, the Gap. But I was Marc Jacobs, marked by Marc Jacobs, so had a very great kind of, you know, entry into the industry and have then, you know, went on to a couple other great agencies in New York, prep group and BPCM. And then about eight years ago, I moved to Chicago and I joined a great small agency here called Skoog. And we did kind of a little bit of everything. 

02:24
Travis
We were the kind of go to shop for luxury retail brands looking to execute activations in the Chicago market. But then we had a really great national practice and roster of clients like Rothy’s and method, the home cleaning brand. We even got into cannabis and home interiors, working with room and board in West Elm. So it’s been nice over this last kind of eight years to diversify outside of fashion and get some experience in other industries. And then last year, I went out on my own and decided to consult purely from just an opportunity to be a little bit more flexible and to try different things. The PR industry has changed so much since I first started. 

03:19
Travis
And one of the things that has changed a lot is the affiliate space, and it’s something I started looking into and working on behalf of clients probably about four years ago. And I still. 

03:32
Lara Schmoisman
Let’s hold on a second. Let’s explain for a second what is affiliate and why came to the, let’s first talk a little bit about influencers and how influencers came to play with brands, and then we can introduce affiliate, and then we can really deep dive into that totally. 

03:51
Travis
Well. So, I mean, I think influencers were really the pioneers in the affiliate space from, you know, an earnings potential. I think, you know, and I’m, I could be totally wrong, but I’m going to give credit to Amber Benz, who founded LTK reward style. I can never remember exactly what they’re called these days, but it was kind of the first platform that offered a tracking link to influencers so that when they linked products, they would earn a commission. Now, you have great programs or platforms like shop my. And then there are other bigger influencer programs that I don’t have a ton of experience with, but like creator IQ and some others. 

04:38
Travis
And so the influencer space, I think, really kind of paved the way for editorial, and it’s really how digital media has learned to monetize their organic content, and so, in turn, has become a very valuable revenue driver for brands. And so I started working with brands to kind of implement what that means for them. And it certainly changed, and we can go back to the influencer part, but it certainly changed how I, as a publicist and my team were pitching brands for various stories or placements. And so that has been kind of a big focus of mine over the last four years. And what kind of has been my main focus in my consulting journey. 

05:38
Lara Schmoisman
Well, so, first of all, why is it attractive to you to work with influencers? Because it’s so difficult sometimes. And so I’m really, it’s really difficult. It’s not that easy, like a lot of people think, first of all, is get the contact, get into the agreement, it’s a constant negotiation, and then approving the content. Make sure that you give the right brief of the content. 

06:05
Travis
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s fun because I think it’s just another form of storytelling for a brand. They’re another extension of a brand story, similar to how I see media. You know, media is telling a story, influencers are telling a story, and they just do it, I think, in a little different way. And I think I, you know, actually, like, I, you know, again, I’ve been, I mean, I think I. So I think I started my career. You know, Instagram had maybe been around for a year, or maybe I started before Instagram even launched. So, like, I’ve kind of seen the digital, I feel like, revolution in this space, you know, grow and change. And I think, you know, similar to how digital media has transformed the way we work, I think influencers has changed and shifted a lot. 

06:58
Travis
I mean, we have the rise of TikTok and, you know, which is, I think, working with influencers on TikTok, which admittedly is not a huge focus of mine for some of my clients right now, but there’s a huge. I think there’s a big difference in how you work with them on TikTok versus how you work with them on Instagram. And I think the types of content that you want from influencers has shifted over time, too. I think in the beginning, you would work with influencers and you would create, in my opinion, sometimes overly detailed briefs, and you were very specific and you wanted a very controlled outcome. And I think a lot of brands still do that. 

07:45
Travis
But now I think you see certainly the trend, and where we see the most success is when you can give an outline to an influencer, but really allow them to really approach the brand and approach the content and approach the brief as organically to them as possible. 

08:08
Lara Schmoisman
Well, I think we need to make a differentiation here, because a lot of brands were thinking that they were hiring a influencer as a content creator, that, or a content agency, that you tell them, give them a brief, very detail what you want. It’s very different when you are hiring an influencer. You’re trying to influence their audience, and nobody knows better the audience than them. 

08:38
Travis
You’re right. Yeah. So I think, yeah, you make a great point in that. I think originally we did work with influencers, I think primarily from, as like, a content creation source. Like, we obviously wanted to appear in their feed and in their content. But in turn, it was kind of back in the beginning where brands were desperate for social content and a lot of brands didn’t really have these internal teams built up yet that were churning out content that they needed. So by working with influencers, I remember some of the early briefs would always be making sure that, like, they would be creating a certain set of images that the brand would then have. Like, they wouldn’t even have to post themselves, but that the brand would get to use to post later on. 

09:29
Travis
And I think that has certainly changed over time, but similar to how the media landscape has changed and how influencers has changed. I think there is a purpose for everyone in terms of what results you’re getting. So I feel like there are some influencers that serve a great purpose of just brand awareness and really just bringing a brand to light and help with that storytelling aspect. And then there are some influencers as you’ve gotten into this affiliate space that in turn are actually insane converters and have such a loyal audience and to your point, know how to talk to their audience and know how to deliver content and brands and products in a way that really aligns with who is following them and in turn then creates a great revenue stream for them and the brand. 

10:39
Lara Schmoisman
Okay, so this is something really important that Isha said you need as a brand to know what’s your goal of working with an influencer. 

10:47
Travis
Oh, 1000%. 

10:49
Lara Schmoisman
Is this a brand awareness? Brand awareness will not bring you sales, it will bring you content creation. And like we talk in many podcasts, it’s about brand awareness is essential. You need that part, but also you need to set up your expectations and understand what metrics you’re going to be reading from that. 

11:08
Travis
Yeah, and it’s about, and again, I think it’s about having a combination of everything because, you know, similar how I explain, you know, in the affiliate space for kind of like traditional pr, of like why you still have like a traditional agency and then an affiliate agency or an affiliate consultant is that I, you know, one hand you still need a brand, still needs that very traditional, like brand storytelling, emotional connection to the consumer. And then on the affiliate side, it’s almost a little bit more of like the business opportunity of like, you know, you on both media and influencers, I think for the affiliate space you’re really helping, they’re really helping illustrate what a brand is solving for, what a product is solving for, to then in turn hopefully convert. Like that’s the most important. 

12:06
Travis
But you can’t really have one or the other because if you don’t have the brand awareness, no matter how good that story is or that influencer is, if someone reading it doesn’t know who you are as a brand, then it’s not going to convert as well. So they, to me they work hand in hand. So when you are looking and building your strategies, you’re exactly right. You have to be super clear on what your KPI’s are, but making sure that you have a balance, because I do think, you know, especially as we’ve gotten into the affiliate space and there has become this new sense of data and tracking in PR which didn’t really exist before. 

12:57
Lara Schmoisman
Right. 

12:58
Travis
I think brands love that because they’re like, oh, wow, we can finally see the ROI. And so then they become a little reluctant to kind of go back to some of that brand awareness stuff that is a little bit harder to measure. But it’s really important, I think, to keep a balance of both. 

13:16
Lara Schmoisman
Before we get into revenue share models, let’s talk for a second on how do you work with influencers. How do you select an influencer for work with a specific plan? Do you think about budget? Do you think about seating? How do you work with them and for what length of time you need to creating this content? How do you approach these influencers? 

13:45
Travis
So I think it really depends on, I think it depends on the brand and the category and the influencer. I think one of the trends we’ve seen recently is that a brand definitely gets, I think, a little bit more value in longer term partnerships where you’re able to work with an influencer or a creator, as some of them like to be called these days. If you’re able to sign them up for a six month or a twelve month contract where they’re creating for you over this time, I think it brings out, again, a much more authentic experience for their followers because they’re able to not think of it so strictly of like, okay, I have to create this and I have to post it by this date at this time. 

14:40
Lara Schmoisman
But at the same time, there are two notes here. One that comes with the cost that needs to be, you know, that maybe you’re paying for this and you’re not paying for another thing. So you need to budget is the second thing that you need to make sure that you align and your values align. And that’s where someone like you comes in. And it’s so important that you’re going to make the selection of these individuals because you don’t want someone, that you don’t want to be connected to your brand in a month or two. 

15:13
Travis
Yeah, totally. I think, yeah, exactly like you, I think the vetting process for choosing influencers is really important. I think, you know, again, it comes down to category because I think there are still moments where like the one off giftings and the seatings are great and you still get, you know, that is again, a more of like a brand awareness play. You know, you still see the like, unboxings or people still share what they get or what they’re getting and there’s not too much there from a, I guess, expectation in terms of what the deliverables are versus like the, you know, kind of what I was talking about earlier, setting up those longer term. 

15:59
Travis
But so, like, beauty, for instance, to me is like the perfect category of like, I think consumers and followers of these influencers enjoy watching the kind of, or progress or timeline of someone using a product. So that’s where, you know, again, those. 

16:22
Lara Schmoisman
Before and afters are totally. 

16:24
Travis
And so, again, that’s where I think that sense of like the longer term partnerships makes sense because, yes, an influencer can, you know, you can seed a product or pay them for kind of one set of content and they can post about it. But it’s, again, beauty, I think anything, and kind of like the nutrition supplement, ingestible, like anything you’re consuming it, like those, like, take time. And even the influencers need to kind of build a little credibility with their followers. I think fashion, accessories, some home stuff is a little bit easier in kind of like the quick content kind of thing where you don’t necessarily need a longer term partnership. 

17:14
Travis
Again, I think it depends, as I say, that in the betting space, if you are a betting brand that is not your, you have certain claims to your products of like, will improve your sleep or will help be cooling or something like that, as opposed to, it’s not just of like you’ll have these beautiful new sheets in your house, kind of like brands with those claims. Again, you want to give your influencers that you’re engaging time to kind of prove and talk to those because that’s what, that’s what their followers are going to be paying attention to. 

17:55
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, totally. Right. So now we’re going to be talking about your favorite subject, which is. 

18:05
Travis
I don’t know. 

18:07
Lara Schmoisman
Come on. Yes. 

18:08
Travis
No. 

18:08
Lara Schmoisman
Well, when influencers also make money from the product, we incentivize they have skin in the game. 

18:16
Travis
Yeah. 

18:17
Lara Schmoisman
So let’s talk about the evolution about this and what of this, how we evolve into getting the influencer involved in the sale of the product. Of course, we had to have the tools, which are amazing tools. And actually having a in last week, I’ve been talking to a new selling live on your website and phone. There are amazing technology out there that we can utilize and the influencer gets money for selling. 

18:50
Travis
Yeah, I mean, it was one of the most fascinating aspects of kind of getting into the affiliate space that I noticed, like the first time for one of the first brands I worked with in the affiliate space, again, I was really focused on kind of the editorial side for them, but they were brands that were a part of LTK. And so I could see the back end and kind of the results that came in from that. And it was fascinating to see the power of these influencers and kind of what they could drive. And I think, in a sense, I know at the beginning of this, I said that the influencer space was kind of the pioneers in all of this and I think they’re responsible for how editorial eventually picked up. 

19:44
Travis
But I think there’s still such a big opportunity because I think part of all of this and now brands being able to be a little bit more KPI driven with some of these initiatives because there is data there. It’s almost like, I think all of these influencers that are part of some of these bigger agencies, these agencies need to start working with their influencers, with their talent to help them really clearly speak to their power from, like, a revenue perspective. I think that’s something that’s still missing that, like, you know, I still, you know, when I reach out to influencers or agents about working with a brand, I’m working with, you know, a lot of brands have plenty of budget and they have, you know, but they’re much more discerning now about how they’re spending it. 

20:49
Lara Schmoisman
Yep. 

20:50
Travis
And if an influencer is able to come back to us and say, hey, we did a program with a brand in a similar category as yours for 30 days and these were the stats. I drove this much traffic, this was my conversion rate. You know, we’re not asking for, like, trade secrets per se, but influencers still want that kind of flat fee. Most influencers don’t want just commission. But so it’s about finding that balance. And so my hope is that, you know, if anything, influencers can, and I get some of the platforms too, I think the data that influencers get is a little muddled. They don’t, have a ton of clarity. I’ve always been very curious. I’ve always wanted to, like, see what the backend looks like on LTK for an influencer. I know what it looks like for a brand. 

21:51
Travis
I’ve heard, and I don’t, you know, I’ve heard that, like, shop my, which is a relatively newer platform and, you know, started in a beauty space and then is working to grow more into fashion, is a little bit more, what’s the word? Offers a little bit more to, like, both the influencers and the brands from a data perspective. So I think influencers on shop my should definitely leverage that because I think it will only help them actually get better and bigger campaigns with brands if they can clearly identify the opportunity. Because from a brand perspective, follower count went out the window a long time ago. Like, you know, because there are influencers, if you will, with 7500 followers that can move so much more product than an influencer with a million followers. 

22:54
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. But before we move on the subject, I would like to understand what are the standards in this industry? What are the margins that we’re talking that we need to give an influencer to make sense for them to work? 

23:13
Travis
I mean, I think it depends, again, it, like, it is, you know, you are, it’s, if you’re a very established brand and there’s like a revenue opportunity, I think it’s easier for an influencer to say, yes, I’ll do that. Like, I’ll use Gucci, for example. I don’t even know if Gucci has an affiliate program or works with influencers in this way, but I, Gucci has such great brand awareness that if an influencer is authentically talking about products or whatnot, there’s less of a challenge to get them to convert because people are like, yeah, oh, I know that brand easy. 

24:01
Travis
Whereas it kind of same thing of like I think about, sorry, I might go on a little tangent here, but when you’re looking at brands that just want to gift, a lot of influencers these days will say no to an unknown brand because they know they’re just not going to be able to do anything because they don’t have the bandwidth for kind of like free content, but like. 

24:22
Lara Schmoisman
Exactly. So as a new brand, how do you work, how do you suggest a new brand to work in the, in this space? 

24:33
Travis
I mean, I think for new brands it’s, I think it’s about being creative and I think it’s about, you know, really figuring out, you know, it’s something, we recently had a call with another group of people and I think one of the things we talked about is having brands think of kind of, especially as they’re approaching launch, think about everything they’re doing and all of the different areas they’re creating content. So social web, email, and then how do those all tie together? How can you link them all together? How can you save budget on your end by, you know, if you’re going to be doing five shoots, is there a way to do, you know, to do those basically in one shoot? Like, is there a way to save money by be thrifty? Yeah. 

25:31
Travis
So it’s like, you know, if you need models for you know, a social campaign, can those models be influencers that you’re going to work with? Like, can you pay the influencers to appear in this content? And, you know, and then, you know, I think about, I mean, this is not a perfect example because this brand is much more established. But, like, away the luggage brand, they launched a summer campaign and it was full of like real life influencers and creatives and different kinds of people and they shot the campaign with these people and then these people had their own content to put out. There was BTS and there was like, you know, there was. This content was used for out of home, it was used for social, it was used everywhere, email. 

26:35
Lara Schmoisman
What’s the cost of working with an influencer for something like that? 

26:39
Travis
Oh, I mean, again, it depends, but again, there’s like, there’s different levels of, like, you know, it is, you know, the away example is obviously for a brand that has a great budget because something like that, I’m sure did not come cheap. But I think it’s about, you know, for a small brand, I like the rule of threes and that, like, I think, you know, even if it’s models, even if it’s influencers, I think having three people, groups, whatever represented, is a great way to create diversity from the get go. So of just like, whether it’s like, you know, whether it’s, you know, sex diversity, race diversity, whatever, like you, it just allows you to have more of a mix so that, like, you’re not just like launching with kind of one view. So I, you know, that, I know, obviously, like, adds cost. 

27:40
Travis
Like you’re, that’s three people versus one. 

27:44
Lara Schmoisman
But if you use it smartly, then. 

27:47
Travis
If you use it totally, if you use it smartly, if you. Again, I think that this is a perfect find. Influencers that aren’t, you know, fully, you know, established, but that really speak to your community. That’s, that’s a big point. 

28:07
Lara Schmoisman
Also, you, before you go and start spending all this money as a young brand, you need to make sure who’s your audience. 

28:14
Travis
Yes. Oh, my gosh. 

28:15
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, I’ve seen it way too many times. Brands spending money and then realize, oh, that’s not really who we’re appealing to. 

28:23
Travis
Totally. And it’s who they’re appealing to or like, they almost, it’s like, it’s kind of a double edged sword. I was, what I was just going to say is, like, sometimes I think brands are too niche and it’s like, it’s hard because, like, yes, you don’t necessarily have to be a brand for everyone, but sometimes being too niche makes it hard for more people to tell your story. So it’s like finding that balance of how do you align with influencers that, again, can speak to a broad group, but have a very focused following, if that makes sense. 

29:07
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, yeah. You need to make sure sometimes it’s not as much as the influencer itself is about the audience of the influencer. 

29:17
Travis
Yeah. 

29:18
Lara Schmoisman
So that’s something you need to. Sometimes you have, you think you’re very niche and the influencer fit your niche perfectly, but their followers are not. 

29:27
Travis
Yep. 

29:28
Lara Schmoisman
And I seen that mistake happen, too. 

29:31
Travis
Yeah. I mean, you see that a lot in, like, the luxury space. I think luxury brands can be like, you know, a lot of these influencers are getting paid tons of money, so they themselves are a luxury consumer. However, it doesn’t mean that their followers are luxury consumers. And so you may not see the return of, you know, something with them. Again, I think there’s a place for everyone. I think, you know, like, aspirational content is still very important. So I think. 

30:07
Lara Schmoisman
And then you have those people, if we’re talking about luxury, that they fall in love with something and they will have all their savings, not necessarily are their target audience, but it’s so aspirational that you want to own one, like. 

30:23
Travis
Exactly. Yeah, totally. So again, it goes back to, at the very beginning of our conversation, it’s. You do and it is, it definitely is harder for younger, smaller brands in the beginning to be so diverse in the mix of what they’re doing because everything does cost money. So it’s like, I, you know, if you can’t do it all at once, even though I definitely recommend doing as much as you can at once in terms of, like, the levers and the channels, you just honestly, I think, have to be a little bit more patient. It just takes a little bit more. 

31:00
Lara Schmoisman
Time and that’s okay, but. 

31:03
Travis
Exactly. Oh, totally. 

31:04
Lara Schmoisman
What were talking yesterday in that other conversation that we had, which is really important to understand the steps that you cannot go if you’re going to be selling in your website, you need to have a website works really well, that your emails are on point before you start spending money in PR or working with influencers. 

31:24
Travis
Yeah, I mean, we see that in like, the affiliate space, too. It’s like we can, you know, we can get a brand, all kinds of placements, have them linked, drive the traffic. But if you have a crappy website, you’re not going to see conversions. It’s not, again, it goes back to I think sometimes in the PR and marketing space, brands sometimes think doing some of these things, whether it’s influencers or even signing up for affiliate, that it’s going to be the solution and it’s just a part of the puzzle. Like, it’s just one of the things you need to be doing. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be the one thing that is the most successful. 

32:15
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. And yeah, it’s always a combination, but you need to make sure everything is working together. Even a lot of people that I talked to, they mentioned, well, my competition is doing this, so I want to do exactly the same or I want to stay away from the competition. And it’s not about that. It’s, for example, if you are, you need to understand each one of the platforms. Of course, you don’t want to use the same influencer that the competition is working with, but you do want to have the same keywords. So in your Google pages, you show up with the competition and you create that brand awareness together from the competition. 

32:53
Travis
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, totally. 

32:56
Lara Schmoisman
You need to understand each one of the spaces that they have their own rules and how you work. 

33:02
Travis
Yeah. 

33:03
Lara Schmoisman
So how would you recommend to an early stage, middle stage brand to approach all these influencer marketing slash affiliate. I mean, there are many platforms out there, but nothing so many at the end that we can use. 

33:25
Travis
I mean, I think it depends on, again, what stage you’re at and what I think. So, but, okay, going to the beginning, I think some of these smaller brands, in the beginning, you are a little more hands on these platforms. I think some are a little better than others. And honestly, I have favorites in this space and I won’t get into, like, naming names for that purpose, but, like, because it is like, it’s such a new space for a lot of us that I think some of them have better customer service or because, you know, you and I are both in the quote unquote agency world. Well, you have an actual agency. I’m an agency of one. But so, like, they have agency support teams. So I feel like some are better. 

34:16
Lara Schmoisman
Those are crucial. They are totally important because, and I. 

34:21
Travis
Think some platforms have better support there than others. And so if I’m having an issue and it’s going to take you a week to get back to me, it’s really hard for me to then, like, bring a new brand to you. So I have, I do have my allegiance because there are some that I just think give me such great support in anything I need and it’s been a really helpful part of the whole kind of getting into this space. 

34:48
Lara Schmoisman
Also, when you choose platforms, something that I’ve seen consistently is that you really need to see who are the creators or influencers inside that they use those platforms. I found some of them that they don’t align well with my clients, so it was really hard to use those platforms. 

35:09
Travis
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, most of, in my influencer work on the affiliate side, you know, most of the influencers I work with are usually going through, you know, one of the bigger platforms, like a, like to know it or a shop my, and so, and those work with almost every of, like, kind of the majority affiliate platforms, like Sheriff Awin Impact, like LTK, and shop my work with all of those. And so it’s easy to do that. But then also, if you are an influencer, and this, I think is for maybe more established, but, and I think I’ve seen this especially more in the beauty and wellness space, if you’re an influencer that really understands your power and the revenue you’re driving, you’ll join. 

36:11
Travis
You probably won’t even necessarily put a lot of focus on some of those influencer specific networks, and you’ll just be on all of the major networks because it’s free for them to join all of those on a brand. So a lot of them will just join directly. I see that a ton in the beauty and wellness space for some that, you know, especially there are some, like, youtubers in the space that just drive insane business in, like, the skincare space, and they just work with brands directly and they’ll be on, you know, you can work with them on share sale or Awin or impact because they’re on all of them versus, like, one of the bigger influencer specific platforms. 

36:58
Lara Schmoisman
That’s great information. So before we go, I have one last question for you. 

37:03
Travis
Okay. 

37:04
Lara Schmoisman
What something that you never do working with an influencer, content creator or affiliate. 

37:15
Travis
Something that I never do or something. 

37:20
Lara Schmoisman
You will never recommend do that. It’s like, never tell them what to do or never something that you can say, save them that mistake to our audience. 

37:32
Travis
Oh, again, I mean, I guess, you know, keeping on the influencer and we kind of touched on this earlier, but, like, it’s really not being, just don’t be too prescriptive with what you’re asking or what your guidelines are like, you know, yes. If you are a brand of, in a category that has very specific regulations or things that need to be said, you know, so, like, if you are in pharmaceuticals, like, there’s a whole, you know, that’s a whole different ballgame, but, like, and it’s good to give, you know, a brand, or it’s good for a brand to give guidelines, but, like, don’t be so crazy about, you know, really kind of think about what are, write your big list, write about everything you don’t want, and then maybe go through it again and be like, okay, is that really a big deal? 

38:28
Travis
Is that really going to look bad or whatnot? Because I think it, I also think it will help in turn then get you better, partnerships out of the influencer, because a lot of the influencers that deliver, that know how to deliver on behalf of a brand will get a crazy brief and they’ll just say no, because they just know that they won’t be successful. They, they want to be successful for the brand. And so, I think, you know, trust them. Have open conversations about where they’ve seen success in working with brands. I say that same thing actually on the affiliate space with brands and publishers. 

39:17
Lara Schmoisman
Ayesha said something really important. Talk to them, don’t put it in writing. Just have communication. Talk to them. Ask them what works in the past, what they feel that they can work for this brand, because this brand is not exactly the same as another brand. I would be very concerned if they’re working with two brands that they’re similar, though. Yeah, that’s another thing that is important that you look with, and I’m sure you do it as part of the research, who they are working with now. 

39:48
Travis
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, so kind of what I just said was, you know, something was a big takeaway, actually, for me. When I was just at affiliate Summit east in New York, and one of the panels, it was someone from a publisher, and, you know, she was giving this tip to brands that, you know, when you are, you know, a big part of, like, brands working with publishers in the affiliate space now is that there are, like, paid opportunities and you’ll work on a paid opportunity and sometimes it may not deliver exactly how you want it to. And they said a lot of times they see brands just kind of disappear. They’re like, oh, well, that didn’t work. 

40:31
Travis
So we’re just going to leave a, and in reality, the brand should go to that publisher and say, hey, would love to hear your thoughts on how this performed and how we might be able to do better next time. Because it’s such, there’s so much learning in everything we’re doing. And it goes back to that open line of communication. Having that communication about where the publisher is finding success again, I guess it kind of ties back to what I just said about not being too prescriptive with the influencers on the brand and publisher side. If you’re doing a paid program, don’t be too prescriptive with the publisher. Let them tell you what is working. What? Let them tell you where they’re seeing conversion with their reader, because that’s where you want to be. That’s what’s going to make you successful. 

41:26
Lara Schmoisman
A long term partnership. Also use data to see how you can improve. That’s the data for you there, which we didn’t have many years ago. And now we have an incredible amount that you can see and also support those publishers from other sites. Don’t put all the work in the publisher. Use your ecosystem to make it more successful. 

41:52
Travis
Yeah, 1000%. 

41:54
Lara Schmoisman
Okay. Thank you so much for having coffee with me today. 

41:57
Travis
Thank you for having me. 

41:59
Lara Schmoisman
Okay. And to you guys, we will see you with who knows what next week in coffee number five. Bye.