Lara Schmoisman 0:03
Hi, everyone, welcome back to coffee number five. Today, I was thinking as I was growing up, I tried to do so many things in my life. You know my story a little bit. I flirted with so many different disciplines in my life. And I learned from all of them, but also I failed. And I fail a lot. And I wouldn’t be where I am without failing so many times and without learning so many times. And like I always say, it doesn’t matter how many times you fall, it’s like how gracelessly you get up and you keep going. And the thing is that at some point in your life, and this is something I think they never teach us before. You don’t go to school for this. They don’t teach you just to look at the big picture. Look at the big game, because it’s not the one part of your life it look at the distance, what can I do what I can leave a legacy, it’s not even about money. It’s about the long game. So today, I invited Dorie Clark, Harvard Business Review. Writer rider, also multiple books and the long the long game in the long game? Okay, it’s here. For a second I lost him. But uh, you guys see that this is live. And I’m not cheating. And sometimes this happened. Those words, they are. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here today.
Dorie Clark 1:36
Lara, thank you so much. Really great to be here with you.
Lara Schmoisman 1:39
So, the long game? How did it come to? You know, how did you figure it out?
Dorie Clark 1:48
Yes, well, I think I think a lot of us, frankly, have had similar feelings. Because, you know, pre pre pandemic, it just seems like at myself, and everyone I knew was in this perennial state of rushing around, you know, I kept hearing from people all I wish I just had a minute to breathe. I wish I had a minute to think. And we were just pushing, pushing, pushing. And so much of it was about just getting things done, that it seemed like nobody was ever really stopping to lift your head up and consider, well, what do I want to be doing? Or am I doing the right things? Or what’s the direction I’m heading in? And, of course, with the pandemic, in some ways, it forced us to slow down, but I think not necessarily in the right ways. Because we still were doing so much short term thinking, you know, for for many of us, you try to make a long term plan, and it’s like, Nope, sorry, you know, oh, we’re gonna go back to the office in July. I mean, September, I mean, January, you know, just all blew up. And so it was all just very focused on short term concerns and considerations. And I think that’s not really healthy. There’s something to be said, for short term thinking. I mean, you need to adapt and pivot, for sure. But that can’t be all that we do. Because some of the most important outcomes, you know, whether it’s building a successful business or, you know, creating meaningful relationships, those are things fundamentally that take time they take investment, and they take being able to play the long game successfully. So I wanted to write a book to really help people reorient toward a longer range of strategic thinking.
Lara Schmoisman 3:25
Right. And lately, I mean, there’s this very popular book, probably, you know, to that infinite game, what’s the difference between an infinite game Simon Sinek on the long game, Dorie Clark?
Dorie Clark 3:37
Well, you know, if I can attempt to characterize Simon’s book, I mean, what he is talking about, is the idea. You know, there’s, this is based off of work years ago, by psychologist, I’m not even sure you know, what the person was, but there was a researcher talked about the difference between finite and infinite games. And, of course, you know, the finite game has has, you know, clear rules, you know, like chess, you win the game, you lose the game, whatever. But a lot of things are not like chess, right? The Game of Life, quote, unquote, well, what does it mean to win it? Is it you know, oh, you know, you have the most money you win. I mean, that’s, that’s not the most sophisticated understanding of what it is meaningful life. And so therefore, we need to treat that differently. And that’s kind of in the category of an infinite game. How do we keep it interesting? How do we keep it going back and forth. And so I think that’s a really fantastic concept and a really important idea to think about. In Simon’s book, he primarily is talking about businesses and large scale organizations. He’s talking about Microsoft and Apple, he’s talking about the US Army and going to war and things like that. And I think that is amazing and really interesting, but I really wanted to apply the you know, these concepts, you know, the question of how do you actually have a career a life that you are happy at the end of it with the outcomes, I wanted to bring it down to a personal level, and really try to provide people with some frameworks so that we can look at ourselves better, and hopefully, make the choices today that will make tomorrow better and easier for ourselves.
Lara Schmoisman 5:20
So I just got a freebie that you have down there in your website, that we’re gonna give the link for people to go and get it, of course, and I just want to talk a little bit about that framework, and what can we do for people to get to get on the game. And in the long game, I see that there is I mean, I was talking today, actually, this morning with a client. So she was telling me I want to do cells. And as I understand we want to do cells. But what’s your strategy? What’s your strategy to do sales in three months? And what your strategy in six months and what’s your strategy in one year doesn’t mean that things won’t change, because sometimes we need to pivot and COVID was our more recent experience that everyone had to pivot and we keep pivoting. But at the same time, you need to know what you’re going to do otherwise, your time gonna get wasted in so many directions, if you don’t have a strategy, and also, you’re never going to be measuring what works and what doesn’t.
Dorie Clark 6:24
Right on I’m so glad that you that you raise that, Laura, because it’s it’s really true. You know, some people say, Oh, well, you know, things change. And so why should I? Why should I be thinking long term? Why should it be planning long term? And it’s true, you know, I mean, it would be a bad thing. If you created, let’s say, a career plan for yourself when you were 20 years old, and then you just stuck to it no matter what, 30 years, that is not going to work. I mean, industries change jobs, jobs get created jobs disappear, you have to say. Exactly. So it’s certainly true that being stuck to a plan is a bad idea. But having the plan is actually really powerful. There was an interesting study that was was done years ago, that showed that biz, you know, that entrepreneurs or small business owners who had a business plan, were actually much more successful than those who didn’t. But the interesting part is that most of them didn’t follow the business plan. That’s, you know, you’d think like, oh, well, they had the plan, they followed it, not necessarily, it was the act of doing the thinking and doing the research to create the plan that made them better off because they had enough information, that they could be smart and nimble when they needed to. But having the long term plan was was a really valuable exercise. Even if you didn’t follow
Lara Schmoisman 7:47
- I always work with four pillars on my my audience nowadays that they are about time, Team budget and knowledge. If you don’t have those pillars, and what you were talking about having a business plan means that you have the knowledge.
Yes, absolutely. So true.
Lara Schmoisman 8:06
And if you don’t have the knowledge, and how can you execute? So what tips and tricks or hacks can we give our audience today that to plan that long reign, if for their business, or even for the personal brand? Because now that we have a lot of people that have a personal brand? And they don’t realize that they need to treat it as a business?
Dorie Clark 8:26
Yes, yes, definitely. So there’s a lot of different possibilities that we can be following. And you know, let me just name name a few here. So one important starting point, this is actually I devoted the first third of the long game to this because I think it’s so critical, is the idea of creating more whitespace in your life and in your business. Because one of
Lara Schmoisman 8:49
the biggest what is the whitespace? Yeah,
Dorie Clark 8:53
exactly. Well, good. Good question. Picture, your calendar, whether it’s a physical calendar, whether it is an online calendar, if you have a million back to back meetings, you know, let’s say you’re on Google, you’re on Outlook. It’s just these swaths of, you know, blue, blue, blue, blue, and there’s nothing white, all you’re doing is racing from one thing to the next. There’s not time for reflection. There’s not there’s not even time to follow up on the things you said you were going to do. And yet so many of us pathologically, just create so many meetings and obligations, we have no white space to think and to process it. So I think the first step that I talked to people about is getting really merciless, about guarding their time for their most important work, and being able to slough off a lot of other obligations. Because when you hear people say, I literally just don’t have time to think often they’re not exaggerating, that’s actually true. And it’s a problem because we can’t even begin to do strategic thinking if we don’t We’ll allow ourselves a moment to do it. I’m curious, Laurie, you seem like a very busy person. How do you create whitespace for yourself? Or do you carve out time to think or time to strategize?
Lara Schmoisman 10:11
Actually, every day until my when my team leaves early. I make sure everyone leaves. And then I’m the last one to leave boys. But I take some time off. And that time I used to either cooking or reading or whatever, but I need to disconnect for a little bit, then if I need to go back to work, that’s fine. It’s my thing is my job is my passion. And I’m okay with that. But you need those breaks, otherwise, it’s burned out. And I think that’s one of the ways that you decompress.
Dorie Clark 10:45
Yeah, I think I think that’s great. And I love what you’re saying, because it’s actually true. Sometimes people will often raise the objection, you know, but I just don’t have time to go off. And, you know, and sit and think and meditate. And you know that I get it right, people are really busy. The good news about strategic thinking is that you don’t have to actually, you know, sit there like a monk and meditate. This is the kind of thing that if you are cooking, if you are at the gym, that you know, you can multitask in that way. Your your body might be occupied, but your brain is not. And it’s just a question of,
Lara Schmoisman 11:21
it’s totally true. Like the best ideas come in the shower.
Dorie Clark 11:24
Yes, yeah. There’s actually research about it. I, in my book stand out. I talked about a study that was done by a Dutch researcher named Updike stir house, the wonderful name of app Dykstra house relating, yes. And he talked about the fact that there actually there actually is scientific rationale, that you are likely to have more insights. Because you’re essentially because your physical body is occupied, but you’re doing a rote thing. It’s not like it takes a lot of concentration to be in the shower, like you know what the drill is. So it’s occupying a little bit of your brain, but not too much of your brain. And that actually is literally just the right amount of distraction, that your brain is able to make creative connections.
Lara Schmoisman 12:11
Let me ask you a question. What do you do with your whitespace? And also, do you recommend that people in that whitespace, schedule things because I see a lot of people that are saying, I’m putting this I blocked this time for me to write and I always find that when I tried to block it tend to write in other words,
Dorie Clark 12:30
yes, yeah, it really varies by person. And so it’s important to test out different ways that that are most effective for you. I mean, you know, some people are really good. Oh, I write every morning between seven and 9am. And you know, for other people, that’s the complete wrong strategy. So I think a little experimentation is important. But yeah, what do you do with whitespace? Once you have it? In my particular case, I think that one of the most important things that I have tried to implement in my schedule is essentially taking taking a concept that that has been written about by Paul Graham, who is the founder of the Y Combinator, startup incubator, he talked about his famous essay where he talks about manager time and maker time, manager time, is, you know, for managers that are trying to help advance other people, basically, their whole day is just meeting meeting meeting, phone call phone call phone call, that’s, that’s their life, because they need to manage the project and keep things moving. If you’re a maker in his world, that’s a software coder, but it can be any kind of a maker, you basically need large blocks of unstructured time, in order to get stuff done to be able to concentrate on it. What I have discovered is that if you are an entrepreneur, you’re both your boss and make up salutely are, yes. And so what I the innovation that I’ve tried to do is in my own schedule, I have manager days and maker days. So in a given week, I’ll have you know, a day where it’s just, you know, a million meetings back to back. But then what that allows me to do is have another day that’s completely unstructured. So I can actually do meaningful work on a project that moves the business forward.
Lara Schmoisman 14:13
In my case, I need to have a combination of these, like have blogs in the mid middle that I need some time because that I have a large team. So in those moments is what I say, oh, okay, I thought about this. So I want to talk to this person. And it not every conversation need to be so structured, not every conversation which will have a meeting it put in the calendar, some meetings, which will be spontaneous. I found out that there are a lot of people just trying to make a meeting for everything. What I used to work in agencies that would drive me crazy was meeting meeting meeting meeting and there’s so many meetings that were unnecessary, or there’s so many people invited to the meeting that it was unnecessary.
Dorie Clark 14:58
Yeah, that’s That’s very true. Absolutely. So once you have your, your block of time, once you have a little bit of whitespace, then the question becomes, you know, what do you what do you do with it? How do you think about it? And so one of the concepts that he talked about in the long game, is what it called Thinking in waves. And what I mean by that is that I have seen and I’d be curious about your experience working, working with entrepreneurs and your, your, you know, your your community of followers. But what I often see in the people that I know and work with, is people get frustrated sometimes because they’re like, I’m working so hard. And I’m just not making progress. Why isn’t it working? And almost always, I mean, they’re, you know, they’re not wrong, they are working hard. That is true. But the problem is that as humans, we tend to continue working hard at the things that we already know how to do, and we’re already good at, and they need to be shifting into a new phase of doing other different things, and they often resist doing it. So that’s, that’s one of my observations, what have you seen,
Lara Schmoisman 16:03
or what I’ve seen is the same thing, but it’s about not being able to delegate and to work with others. But also, it’s about being all over the place. If you’re trying to do everything, and you’re trying to do your social media you’re trying to do I mean, I’m talking marketing, because that’s what I know. But if you’re trying to do your SEO, you’re trying to do everything. It’s like, what are you really good at? What is your time more valuable? Art?
Dorie Clark 16:30
Yes, absolutely. It’s, it’s always such an important question to to answer. And so one of the things that I believe is that we, you know, we can’t focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else forever, that would be a bad move. But if we actually want to move our businesses forward, it is a good idea to focus on certain things and put our energy and our intensity into them for a while, and actually make that choice rather than, as you said, being scattered all over the place. So you have the courage to do it.
Lara Schmoisman 17:03
And that comes from creating that plan, or that strategy is like, what’s my role in my business? Because you need to have a role, you cannot be doing absolutely everything, and mostly when your business grow. So how do you in this long game? How do you keep growing because in the long game is not been staying in the same place? Yeah. So how do you get to that point, that growth? Because what, at some point, you start, and then at some point, you need to move on? It’s not a comfortable place? Many times to move?
Dorie Clark 17:41
Right? No, it’s absolutely true. And we, we may want to sort of stay in a place because it’s comfortable. Another element that I often see in the in the entrepreneurs that I know and work with, is one of the things that can be most demoralizing, I guess you could say about playing the long game is that if you have a, you know, a worthy goal, a long term goal that you’re pursuing, the truth is, there’s there’s often quite a distance between where you are now and where that goal is. And in between here and there, it can feel like you’re in this dark tunnel, like, Okay, I am disoriented. I don’t know if I’m making any progress. I have no idea how long this tunnel is. And, you know, am I a mile away? Am I 10 feet away? Am I 1000 miles away from it, I just don’t know. And that’s the place where it becomes really easy for a lot of people to give up or to quit, or to grab on to the next shiny object and say, well, this isn’t working, I’ll do this other thing, when actually, sometimes, you know, oftentimes, the right answer is now you just have to keep going a little longer with the thing you’ve been doing, because it takes time to build a following or it takes time.
Lara Schmoisman 18:57
Absolutely everything takes time. But also it takes measurement. How do you measure it? You need to decide what are your metrics?
Dorie Clark 19:06
Yes, that’s That’s exactly right. And I think a critical thing is identifying your metrics beforehand. Yeah. Because otherwise it’s like I don’t know if it’s I don’t know if it’s working and and you can really, you can really get discouraged quickly but if you know that for everybody else in your field, it took two years to get X amount of revenue or X number of customers you don’t have to panic three months in if you’re not there yet. You know, oh, okay, you know, this is something hopefully it’ll it’ll be faster than two years but it probably won’t be three months you know, so I just keep
Lara Schmoisman 19:43
going do you think a lot of people are not thinking in the long game and even though they know all that it took them two years but I’ll do it faster or it’s happened to me faster they people start the game with that believe?
Dorie Clark 19:57
I think that what is what is most Common is that people actually don’t do the research at all. And so they have no idea. And they, they make assumptions about things. Here’s a great story that I that I recount and I love stories. Oh, yes. Well, so in the 2018 letter to shareholders letter to Amazon shareholders, Jeff Bezos tells this story about a friend of his who hired a handstand coach for yoga. And this handstand coach, you know, apparently had a little game that he liked to do, where he asked people, How long do you think it takes to become good at doing a yoga handstand if you if you practice every day? And the most common answer that he would get was maybe two weeks of practice every day, and I should be able to do it. You’re laughing? No, nope. And you are correct. It takes six months of practice. And so you can absolutely imagine a situation where let’s say somebody’s like, yeah, I want to do a yoga handstand. And they’re practicing for a month, two months, and they still can’t do it. In their head, if they had never researched it. If they’d never asked an expert, if they’ve never looked into it. In their head. They’re like, Oh, my God, I’ve been doing this twice. As long as it should take me I’ve been doing this four times, as long as it should take me, I’m just not good at this. I should just give up when the truth is, they just haven’t been doing it long enough. But they have no idea. Because they didn’t research it. And I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, it’s like that we kind of barrel in without the proper information.
Lara Schmoisman 21:40
Absolutely. I talk to so many people that they and this happen even when you hire someone that you have a concept and having ideas and concepts are, it’s a wonderful thing. But if you don’t do your homework, and even if you send like, in my case, to do a website, and but you don’t need Etn for the research, you can compare notes, you just weren’t with someone because it was a recommendation, maybe wasn’t the best fit for you. You didn’t know how to do it. And that happens in all the parts of your life.
Dorie Clark 22:12
Yeah, that’s so true. That’s so true. So I’m curious, Laura, when it comes to you personally, how how do you think about the long game? Or how do you think about long term thinking in your own business?
Lara Schmoisman 22:25
I, I believe in, of course, that if you don’t make money in a business, it’s a hobby. That’s a let’s put a clear, you need to make money in your business. Very true. So I don’t look expensive hobbies. But I do believe in reinventing. reinvest. But I’m stuck today. Writing really in vesting, yes. I did it in your own business and in your people, that I believe that you’re if I grow, my team need to grow with me. And also never put all your eggs in one basket.
Dorie Clark 23:02
Amen to that? Yes.
Lara Schmoisman 23:04
So that’s how I see the growth and the long game because I am evolving as a person, and I don’t want to be doing always the same.
Dorie Clark 23:12
Yeah, I love that. I think I think that’s really important. And I also especially like the point about, you know, making sure we don’t put all our eggs in one basket, I think that there’s often a sort of, you know, push for entrepreneurs, where it’s, you know, go all in, you know, that’s that’s your thing. And of course, that’s true, right? I mean, you can’t be successful, if you’re, if you’re just sort of, you know, dilly dallying around, you have to work you have to focus. But it doesn’t mean that it literally is the only the only thing you’re doing, and you don’t have anything else going on. One of the things that I talk about in the long game is, you know, famously, Google has 20% Time for their employees. Now, you know, asterisk, lots of Google employees don’t actually take this, they don’t actually use it. But nonetheless, there’s this concept at Google, that you should spend about 20% of your time on discretionary activities that are outside the scope of your job, but you’re doing it to kind of explore to sort of play around and you know, learn some new stuff, invent some new stuff. That’s how Gmail was invented on 20% time. I think this is a fantastic idea, not just for Google employees. I think every entrepreneur should be embracing 20% time. Because if we want to stay ahead of the curve, if we want to make sure that we don’t get outmoded, that the world isn’t changing around us. We need to stay sharp, and we need to practice and invent new things and explore ideas.
Lara Schmoisman 24:41
Absolutely. I wouldn’t be if where I am today, if I won’t be curious. I mean, I don’t know many women my age, and with my background that there are technologically savvy as I am, and it’s because I just was curious. If I was working with a developer I need to understand The Doors, I wasn’t essentials. So if I will know that I won’t do that I wouldn’t be able to progress in or I wouldn’t be able to be owning today a marketing agency. But absolutely. So you need to keep yourself on your toes, you can never forget. And also think, what do you want to be doing in five years? I mean, I can change my mind. But how do I see myself having grandkids and doing what I’m doing now? Because as an entrepreneur, I don’t see myself stop working. Because I love to work. And I love to create a new new things. But it’s the long games the game like you say the long game starts now. Opening those opportunities for the future.
Dorie Clark 25:43
Yes, that’s That’s exactly right. I love that. And it’s true. I mean, if we, if we want to be creating a great future for ourselves, when we’re, you know, when we’re 60, when we’re at, you know, whatever, whatever it is, that’s not something we can magically gin up. When we’re 59. We need to, we need to start laying the groundwork now.
Lara Schmoisman 26:04
Yeah, it’s the same that I will tell my my teenagers on and call it, you need to decide. And I think that that’s a lot of problem with our education system. We teach them how to they need to make a decision now. And you don’t need to make a decision right now. Life will take you places, you just need to be open to the opportunities.
Dorie Clark 26:25
Lara Schmoisman 26:27
So yeah, go ahead.
Dorie Clark 26:29
Oh, I was I was gonna say, I agree with you. I think so many people feel a lot of pressure, they almost feel bad about themselves if they don’t know the answer. But the truth is a large percentage of the people who claim to know the answer, are really just making things up, or they just, you know, they’ve sort of glommed on to an idea that sounds good, but may not be right. I think if we have a lot of intellectual humility, it is valuable for us, because it helps us retain our flexibility. There’s a concept that I talk about in the long game called optimized for interesting. And what I mean by that is, you know, we may not know what our passion is, you know, in life or whatever, you know, are calling. But we certainly know what we find interesting. And as long as we just keep moving in that direction, it enables us to keep moving in a positive direction. You know, if you don’t like it, fine change, that’s okay. You know, no law against that. But your reality is important. That’s right. But presumably, if you’ve been moving toward what you find more interesting, you keep getting a more and more refined sense of where you want to go.
Lara Schmoisman 27:35
And, but I feel like a lot of people are about holding tight in what they have a lot of people they’re holding on to their job, or their trade or their degree. Like, for example, when I started the school, there was a digital day and existed. They didn’t exist at all. So I had to, I did something else. But later on, I pivot in anti I move, so I had to be able to learn other skills. But if I would have on to my degree, I don’t know what I will be today.
Dorie Clark 28:12
Yeah, I think I think it’s a great point. I mean, the good news for me is I was a philosophy major. So there just wasn’t a lot to hold on to. But But nonetheless, I’m
Lara Schmoisman 28:25
a philosophy, Major,
Dorie Clark 28:28
cool, great, great minds, minds. But you know, I think that people are not wrong, of course, you want to have some kind of, you know, sense of stability. But it doesn’t have to be the only the only way of looking at the world. Because the truth is the things that we often think are stable or not. And so, you know, when many people are thinking about becoming entrepreneurs, of course, as you know, Lara, a lot of the cultural narrative is like, Oh, you’re gonna take the leap, you’ve got to jump in, you’ve got to cut the ties and start your business. And, you know, I’m always a fan of, you know, what, don’t do that. You know, keep your day job, practice on the side, figure out if people even want your thing, and then you can start building it. But you know, don’t don’t be foolish about it. And I think similarly, if we’re looking to make a shift in our career, or a shift in our product or service offering, you know, it’s okay, you don’t have to burn the boats, you can test it, you can test it in small and subtle ways and figure it out. And once you have product market fit, that’s when you can jump in a little bit more thoroughly, but it doesn’t have to feel risky and it doesn’t have to be risky.
Lara Schmoisman 29:47
But at the same time they you need to know and how you feel about this because a lot of people they don’t realize that they need to if they’re going to be making the switch always or even halftime or on the side Whatever it is, there’s an investment that in whatever you got, you can call it time. You can call it talent, whatever, but there is an investment. And you need to make to understand that it’s not going to be in two days, that investment, and it’s gonna come back. Or maybe you lose it because you made a mistake, and you need to adjust. So how do you suggest that people prepare themselves for that part of the game?
Dorie Clark 30:27
Yeah, well, I think I think it’s right. I mean, I put an asterisk on it in the sense that even even opportunities that turn out to be dead ends, often are interesting learning experiences that you can derive a lot of value from. So it might feel like a waste of time or, you know, oh, I just, you know, wasted that. But actually, the knowledge that you’ve gained, you know, the importance of the knowledge of like, Well, that didn’t work, or actually I didn’t like that can be just as valuable because it prevents you from going down wrong paths, even worse, wrong paths in the future. So I think that’s an important piece. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of incredible. You know, I’m always an advocate, as I’m sure you are, of making sure that we’re surrounding ourselves with the right people so that we can, you know, learn from them and actually see what it what it really takes. And I just continue to be impressed. I mean, I count myself among this, you know, for many years, I honestly didn’t really understand what it meant to work hard. I thought I worked hard. But I was not surrounding myself with people who actually did. And once I saw what it looked like, I’m like, oh, god, okay, I guess I need to step it up. And so similarly, you know, making sure that we are around the right people. And we understand what commitment looks like is so valuable. I was out literally last night with a colleague of mine, who is a very successful keynote speaker. And she was, you know, I know that over the past few years, she had developed this sort of strategy of keeping in touch with speakers bureaus and being very assiduous about it. And so I was asking her about it last night, I’m like, Hey, how many speakers bureaus? Do you keep in touch with? And I was thinking, you know, 1020, maybe 30. She says, 300 speakers bureaus, that she reaches out to that to all of them on a quarterly basis to touch base to update them on her progress? It’s like, okay, you know, if we want to know why she is a more successful speaker than almost anybody else. That’s why
Lara Schmoisman 32:40
Before we go, Dorie, what’s your long name?
Dorie Clark 32:45
So my long game, I have a number of different goals. One of them is AI, over the course of the next like, decade or so, I would like to rise to the level in my work that hopefully, I am considered among the top handful of business thinkers in the world, I would, I would like my work to be well known enough and impactful enough that, you know, if you asked a decent smattering of people, to name a few, you know, top business thinkers that they know and like, hopefully, my name would, would almost always be on that list. That’s one thing I’m aspiring to the other one, which I kind of chronicle this journey a little bit in the long game, is I decided in 2016, that I was going to create a 10 year goal for myself. This is my 20% time that I was going to write a musical that ended up on Broadway. So I’m continuing on that path. I’m aiming for the 20 2060s
Lara Schmoisman 33:42
I’m a big fan of musicals. So fantastic.
Lara Schmoisman 33:46
I want to keep out first. All right, I
Dorie Clark 33:49
amazing. We will totally have to keep in touch about that. What else? You know, those are those are the those are the big ones. I mean, obviously, I you know, I’d like my my love life to be in better shape. But I only have half the control over that.
Lara Schmoisman 34:06
Yeah. Well, it happens it when it happens when it needs to happen. That’s right. Well, Laurie, thank you so much for being here. You’re definitely on my list of top thinkers.
Dorie Clark 34:19
Thank you, Lara. It’s so wonderful to get a chance to connect with you here and I so appreciate the chance to talk with you.Until you guys thank you so much for being here today. And I’ll see you next week with more coffee number five
Lara Schmoisman 34:24
you. Until you guys thank you so much for being here today. And I’ll see you next week with more coffee number five